IMAGE  EVALUATION 
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23  WEST  MAIN  STREET 

WEBSTER, NY.  )45B0 

(716)  872-4503 


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CIHM/SCMH 

Microfiche 

Series. 


CIHIVI/ICMH 
Collection  de 
microfiches. 


Canadian  Institute  for  Historical  Microreproductions  /  Institut  Canadian  de  microreproductions  historiques 


Technical  and  Bibliographic  Notes/Notes  techniques  et  bibliographiques 


/ 


The  Institute  has  attempted  to  obtain  the  best 
original  copy  available  for  filming.  Features  of  this 
copy  which  may  be  bibliographicaliy  unique, 
which  may  alter  any  uf  the  images  in  the 
reproduction,  or  which  may  significantly  change 
the  usual  method  of  filming,  are  checked  below. 


D 


D 

n 


n 


Coloured  covers/ 
Couverture  de  couleur 


I      I    Covers  damaged/ 


Couverture  endommagde 

Covers  restored  and/or  laminated/ 
Couverture  restaurde  et/ou  pellicul6e 

Cover  title  missing/ 

Le  titre  de  couverture  manque 

Coloured  maps/ 

Csrtes  gdogr&phiques  en  couleur 

Coloured  ink  (i.e.  other  than  blue  or  black)/ 
Encre  de  couleur  (i.e.  autre  que  bleue  ou  noire) 


I      I    Coloured  plates  and/or  illustrations/ 


Planches  et/ou  illustrations  en  couleur 


Bound  with  other  material/ 
Reli6  avec  d'autres  documents 


Tight  binding  may  cause  shadows  or  distortion 
along  interior  margin/ 

La  re  Mure  serrde  peut  causer  de  I'ombre  ou  de  la 
distortion  le  long  de  la  marge  intdrieure 

Blank  leaves  added  during  restoration  may 
appear  within  the  tent.  Whenever  possible,  these 
hbve  been  omitted  from  filming/ 
II  St  peut  que  certaines  pages  blanches  ajout6es 
lors  d'une  restauration  apparaissent  dans  le  texte, 
mais,  lorsque  cela  6tait  possible,  ces  pages  n'ont 
pas  M  film^es. 


L'Institut  a  microfilm^  le  meilleur  exemplaire 
qu'il  lui  a  6t6  possible  de  se  procurer.  Les  details 
de  cet  exemplaire  qui  sont  peut-§tre  uniques  du 
point  de  vue  bibliographique,  qui  peuvent  modifier 
une  image  reproduite,  ou  qui  peuvent  exiger  une 
modification  dans  la  mdthode  normale  de  filmage 
sont  indiqu6s  ci-dessous. 


I      I    Coloured  pages/ 


Pages  de  couleur 

Pages  damaged/ 
Pages  endommcgdes 

Pages  restored  and/o' 

Pages  restaurdes  et/ou  pelliculdes 

Pages  discoloured,  stained  or  foxet 
Pages  ddcolor^js,  tachetdes  ou  piqudes 

Pages  detached/ 
Pages  d6tach6es 

Showthrough/ 
Transparence 

Quality  of  prir 

Quality  indgale  de  ('impression 

Includus  supplementary  materii 
Comprend  du  materiel  suppl^mentaire 

Only  edition  available/ 
Seule  Edition  disponible 


I      I  Pages  damaged/ 

I      I  Pages  restored  and/c  laminated/ 

r~7i  Pages  discoloured,  stained  or  foxed/ 

I      I  Pages  detached/ 

ryi  Showthrough/ 

I      I  Quality  of  print  varies/ 

I      j  Includus  supplementary  material/ 

I      I  Only  edition  available/ 


D 


Pages  wholly  or  partially  obscured  by  errata 
slips,  tissues,  etc.,  have  been  refilmed  to 
ensurn  the  best  possible  image/ 
Les  pages  totalement  ou  partiellement 
obscurcies  par  un  feuillet  d'errata,  ur>e  pelure, 
etc.,  ont  6t6  film^es  d  houve^tu  de  fapon  i 
obtenir  la  meilleure  image  possible. 


[771    Additional  comments:/ 

IaJ    Commentaires  suppldmentaires: 


Dark  blotch  on  page  2. 


This  item  is  filmed  at  the  reduction  ratio  checked  below/ 

Ce  document  est  filmd  au  taux  de  reduction  indiqu6  ci-dessous. 

10X  14X  18X  72X 


V 


12X 


16X 


20X 


26X 


30X 


24X 


28X 


] 


32X 


Tha  copy  filmed  hare  has  baan  raproducad  thanks 
to  tha  ganaroslty  of: 

Library. 
Department  of  Fisheries  and  Oceans 

Tha  imagas  appaaring  hara  ara  tha  bast  quality 
possibia  considaring  tha  condition  and  lagibility 
of  tha  original  copy  and  in  kaaping  with  tha 
filming  contract  spacifications. 


Original  copias  in  printad  papar  covars  ara  filmad 
beginning  with  tha  front  covar  and  ending  on 
tha  last  page  with  a  orintad  or  illustrated  impres- 
sion, or  the  back  cover  when  appropriate.  All 
other  original  copias  ara  filmad  beginning  on  the 
first  page  with  a  printed  or  illustrated  impres- 
sion, and  ending  en  the  last  page  with  a  printad 
or  illustrated  impression. 


The  last  recorded  frame  on  each  microfiche 
shall  contain  the  symbol  —i«»>( meaning  "CON- 
TINUED"), or  the  symbol  V  (meaning  "END"), 
whichever  applies. 

Maps,  plates,  charts,  etc.,  may  be  filmed  at 
different  reduction  r.itios.  Those  too  large  to  be 
entirely  included  in  one  exposure  are  filmed 
beginning  in  the  upper  left  hand  corner,  left  to 
right  and  top  to  bottom,  as  many  frames  as 
required.  Tha  following  diagrams  illustrate  the 
method: 


L'exempiaire  film4  fut  raproduit  grSce  i  la 
g4n6rosit6  da: 

Bibliothdque. 
Ministdre  des  pAclies  et  ocians 

Las  images  suivantes  ont  6t6  reproduites  avec  le 
plus  grand  soin,  compte  tenu  de  la  condition  et 
de  la  nattat6  da  !  axamplaire  fiim6,  at  en 
conf.'>rmit«  avec  las  conditions  du  contrat  de 
filmage. 

Lea  exemplairas  originaux  aont  la  couverture  an 
papier  est  imprim«e  sont  film^s  an  commandant 
par  la  premier  plat  at  er  terminant  soit  par  la 
derniira  page  qui  comporta  una  empreinta 
d'impression  ou  d'illustration,  soit  par  ia  second 
plat,  salon  la  ces.  Tous  las  autras  exemplairas 
^rigiiiaux  sont  filmte  en  commanpant  par  la 
'iramiire  pngo  qui  comporta  una  ampreinte 
d'impression  uu  d'illustration  at  en  terminant  par 
la  darniire  page  qui  comporta  una  telle 
ampreinte. 

Un  des  symboles  suivants  apparaitra  sur  la 
derniira  image  de  cheque  microfiche,  seion  le 
cas:  ia  symbole  — ^  signifia  "A  SUIVRE",  la 
symbols  V  signifie  "FIN". 

Les  cartas,  planches,  tableaux,  etc.,  pejvent  dtre 
filmis  A  des  taux  da  reduction  diff^rents. 
Lorsque  la  document  est  trop  grand  pour  dtre 
raproduit  an  un  seul  cliche,  ii  est  film6  d  partir 
de  Tangle  supiriaur  gauche,  de  gauche  d  droite, 
et  de  haut  an  bas,  en  prenant  le  nombre 
d'imagas  n6cessaire.  Les  diagrammes  suivants 
illustrant  la  m^thoda. 


1  2  3 

4  5  6 


t-  FONT  ^ 


{' 


.A/ 


¥v 


PROCEEDINGS 


L/ 


oi>-   rrii'; 


International  Fisheries  Conference 


MKI.IJ     VT 


SH 
219 
168 
1892 


DETROIT,  MICHIGAN. 
I  aesday  and  Wednesday.   Dec.  20  and  21,  1892. 


Mr.  Whitaker,  of  Detroit:   I  will  call 
the  meeting  to  order  and  state  in  a  gen- 
eral way  the  origin  of  the  International 
FisherieH   Conference   and    itH   t»l)jectH. 
Sometliing  like  two  years  ago  the  par- 
liament of    the    Province    of    Ontario, 
passed  an  act  appointing  a  Game  and 
Fish  Comr.iission,  and  empowering  that 
commission   to   take   testimony  on  the 
condition  of  the  fisheries  of  the  great 
lakes  and  the  inland  waters,  and  also 
the  game  of  tlie  province.     They  were 
also  rei|nested  to  confer  witli  the  states 
bordering  on  the  great  lakes  respecting 
the  fisheries  and  the  enactment  of  nni- 
foriplftKB.for  the  protection  of  commer- 
bf   the   great   hikes.     Th« 
Qll'orts  of  that  board  was 
at  New  York.     At  the 
ftftng  ihe' Province    of 
think  the  .State  of  New 
kaps  some  of  the  other 
«SOT*Vii  ll'aTes,  although   I  am  not  sure 
about    tluit,   were    rei>resented.     Very 
little  was  done  at  that  meeting, 
was   finally  adjourned  to 
ester.     There  some  disc 
upon  these  matters,  and 
tees  were  appointed, 
tions   were   jtresentecl 
and   tlieir  further  difffusBij 


and 


poned  to  a  meeting  called  in  Mamilton,  i 
sometime  about  October  of  last  year.  At  ' 
that  meeting  the  subject  was  taken  up 
and  pretty  fully  discussed;  and  1  think 
as  !■  result  of  that  meeting  some  reixmi- 
mendations  were  made  to  the  parlia- 
ment of  the  Provincial  (.ioverninent. 
Since  that  time,  through  the  ettbrts  of 
tliat  (fame  and  Fish  Commission,  some 
|>rotective  laws  have  been  passed,  and  1 
believe  they  consider  that  there  has  been 
some  l)ene(it  derived  therefrcm. 

It  was  thought  at  that  meeting  that  it 
would  be  beneficial  to  all  of  us  who 
have  an  interest  in  these  things  to  have 
an  adjourned  meeting,  and  keej*  uji  the 
organization,  and  upon  my  invitation 
that  body  adjourned  to  meet  here  some 
tiniv;  in  Octol»erof  this  year.  Hut  owing, 
as  stated  in  the  circular  sent  out,  to  the 
pendency  of  the  presidential  campaign, 
it  was  deemed  best  to  po.stj)one  it  until 
after  the  close  of  the  campaign.  We  are 
to-dav  m^pti^irforUiat  ail  loll  rued  confer- 
'■ncu^^W^sule^i^gTiI'wti^*^^r  we  thought 

1^4^*'*^^'^ '"^'t''  ^Jvu,iicJitt'<^  bj^O^ler  scope 
thft '^proceedings  of   a  -vortfwence  of 
^  kind  than   was  originally  |ontem- 
Those  wlu>  are  engagea  in  fish 
e  know  that^lie  decay  of  ^le  fish- 
has   been   constant   an<t  'gradual, 

■      '    ..■'•■/ 


> :  4 


-^' 


// 


■■> 


(;-.. 


v^ 


f/ 


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■4 

4 


m 


^piep||Pl^iqM»,#iiHMtili  Jil»^if^'^-'!WWiWH|pP»».««^¥ 


^^// 
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/ffJc 


J. 


notwitliHtamliiiK  the  states  are  engaged 
in  iirtiticial  propagation,  and  doing  their 
utmost  to  restock  the  great  lakes  as  well 
as  the  inland  waters.  lUit  really  the 
j  matter  in  whi(;h  the  states  are  most 
_/  ^j<  1  interested,  an<l  the  p  ople,  is  the  preser- 
vation of  the  commercial  fisheries  ui 
the  great  lakes.  It  seems  to  me  beyond 
all  (piestion  that  the  lines  along  which 
we  shall  work  must  ])e  tha  same;  that 
our  views  should  he  uniform  as  to  the 
necessity  of  imposing  a  reasonable  regu- 
lation ui)on  all  fisheries,  that  will  pre- 
serve for  tlu'  future  the  benefits  of  the 
great  lakes  and  their  immense  food  pro- 
<Iucing  jtroduct.  It  is  to  the  interest  of 
the  jteople  most  decidedly,  because  here 
nature  provides  for  us,  without  the  cul- 
ture of  imin,  a  constant  and  increasing, 
if  i)roperly  i)res(  rved,  food  supply,  and 
a  very  important  one — a  cheap  food  and 
a  wholesome  one.  It  is  certainly  in  the 
interest  of  all  classes  that  this  business 
should  be  i)rotected,  and  the  thing  we 
have  to  contend  against  as  fish  culturists 
is  the  fact  that  while  we  are  annually 
putting  into  these  waters,  for  the  pur- 
pose of  renewing  them  or  sustaining 
them  a  large  number  of  Hsh,  and  the 
governments  have  been  liberal  in  this 
matter  of  propagation  and  distribution, 
we  are  confronted  by  the  fact  that  thou- 
sands of  tons  offish  are  annually  taken  by 
the  fishermen  that  have  never  come  to  a 
mature  or  sjiawning  age.  This  process 
of  lishiug  is  destroying  notonly  our  own 
work,  but  is  destroying  the  fish  thatar,' 
naturally  in  the  lakes  which  are  taken 
before  they.havi'  ever  spawned.  What 
we  niuHt  all  face  is  this  question  of  how 
we  shall  peri)etuate  ihe  fishing  on  the 
great  lakes.  Incidentally  comes  up  the 
question  of  whether  we  shall  have  a 
close  season  that  shall  be  uniform  with 
Canada.  Canada  has  a  close  season  of 
the  month  of  N'ovemljer,  the  month  in 
whicH  the  Hp!U^^j|||gi[^«Ml^^iIloi(ls  is 
principallyj|(|TOim5w  E'ilferJ^J^so 
the    que3|jf^^^Q^lllll  h"Wj;^da(jj(m  ♦' 


should 

other  r( 

I  wil 

to  invil 


mi^npon  fisherman  in  ot . 


<pevt« 
say  tluv 


here 


tiJ*M>Tisi(|or  tnese 


anfs 
ues-  A 


tions  with  us  the  commercial  fishermen 
of  the  great  lakes.  They,  1  believe, 
understand  that  we  as  fish  breec'  rs 
are  not  attenii)ting  to  interfere  with 
their  business,  Ijut  that  as  people  who 
represent  the  states,  as  peofde  who 
are  attem])ting  to  renew  and  build  up 
the  fisheries,  we  ask  them  to  heij)  us  to 
impose  some  regulation  that  shall  not 
take  from  the  great  lakes  or  smaller 
l)odies  of  water  these  immature  fish, 
and  that  have  no  commercial  value.  T 
think  now,  gentlemen,  I  have  stated  our 
objects  broadly  enougli. 

The  presiding  officer  of  this  body  at  its 
last  session  was  Senator  McNaughton  of 
New  York.  The  Senator  is  not  here, 
and  T  will  take  the  liberty  of  inviting 
nominations  for  a  chairman  of  this  meet- 
ing. What  is  your  jdeasure,  gentle- 
men ? 

Mr.  Huntington:  I  nomiinite  Mr.  Mc- 
Donald, th((  manager  of  the  Buffalo  Fish 
Oom])any,  as  our  chairman. 

Mr.  McDonald:  I  had  rather  be  ex- 
cused. I  would  prefer  to  ha»e  some  of 
the  older  memliers  have  that  honor. 

Mr.  Post:  I  nominate  Mr.  Bowman  of 
New  York. 

Mr.  Bowman:  I  prefer  not  to  act  as 
chairman  of  the  meeting ;  I  was  not  pres- 
ent at  any  of  the  former  meetings.  As 
Mr.  Whitaker  has  stated  the  objects  of 
the  meeting  and  is  perfectly  familiar 
with  the  subjects  that  will  be  under  dis- 
cussion, I  think  he  is  the  proper  man  to 
act  as  chairman,  and  I  will  move  to 
amend  the  motion,  and  will  nominate 
Mr.  Whitaker  as  chairms 
ference. 

Mr.   Whitaker:  Gentl 
much    prefer  that  yoi 
else. 

Mr.  r>owman:  I  will^ 

Mr.  Whitaker  was  unanl 
§d  as  presiding  officer  of  the  conterence. 

Mr.  ^^'hitaker:    Gentlemen,   I  thank 
mating  me  as  chairman  of 
[his J^etntfc^at  tin;  same  time  1  shouM 
ha^j^^ry  miioL  i)referred  to  have  })een 
(T'tUi^i^oor  to\di8cuss  these  matters 

^e  want  you  to  discuss 


^  Mr.  Hoi 


'^. 


OHAWA 


i?»'-Bnnoii 


w 


tliehe  nuittcr.s,  ami  you  can  call  some 
one  else  to  the  cliair,  and  take  the  floor, 
any  time. 

Mr.  l'os<t:  I  nominate  Mr.  Amstlen  as 
secretary  ot  this  meeting?. 

Chairman  Whitaker:  It  i?  in  order  h> 
nominate  a  secretary,  and  Mr.  Amsden 
of  Rodiester,  has  been  so  nominated. 
Are  there  any  further  nominations? 

A  vote  wa.s  taken  and  Mr.  Amsden 
was  unanimously  chosen  as  secretary. 

Chiiirmaii  Whitaker:  I  have  a  letter 
from  Mr.  Booth,  of  the  A.  Booth  Pack- 
ing Company,  of  Chicago,  one  of  the 
largest  dealers  in  our  lake  fish  there  is 
on  the  borders  of  the  lakes.     He  savs: 

CHiCAdo,  Dec.  17th,  1892. 
Herstiii'l  Whitakfr.  Esq.,  Del,  oit,  Mich.: 

Dear  Sir— I  am  very  sorry  to  say  that  I  am 
called  away  to  New  Orleans  and  shall  not  return 
in  time  for  your  meeting  at  Detroit,  but  I  sin- 
cerely trust  you  will  have  sufficient  people  to 
attend  the  International  Kish  Conference  and 
that  their  deliberations  may  result  in  the  gen- 
eral ;rood  of  protection  of  fish  and  fish  culture, 
the  enforcement  of  laws  and  the  passage  of 
others  that  may  be  beneficial.  There  :;eems  to 
be  generally  throughout  the  states  guod  laws 
for  the  protection  of  fish  and  game,  but  unfor- 
tunately there  seems  to  be  more  "  honor  in  the 
breach  than  in  the  enforcement."  We  have 
called  the  attention  of  some  fish  commissioners 
to  the  small  meshes  of  pound  nets  and  gill  nets, 
which  I  think  do  more  to  destroy  the  fishing  in- 
terests of  the  lakes  than  anything  else,  and  I  do 
hope  we  may  profit  by  the  better  ob.servance  of 
the  laws  in  reference  to  the  protection  of  fish 
and  game  enacted  in  Canada,  or  rather  the  en- 
forcement of  it.  1  should  very  much  like  to  see 
a  more  cordial  feeling  existing  between  our 
country  and  Canada  in  reference  to  uniformity 
of  the  fish  laws,  and  trust  at  your  deliberatiotis 
much  good  may  result  an''  am 
Very  sincerely  yours, 

A.  BOOTH, 
-..  ,«!!     '^;'J*President  \.  Booth  Packing  Co. 

'nIffilftt'&'rt'Whitaker :  For  the  purpo.se 
(if  securing  the  names  of  those  i)resent, 
HO  'that  thc^  may  appear  in  the  record, 
the  Secreta-y  will  now  hand  youapap«'r 
on  which  you  will  pleas"  write  your 
names. 

The  following  gentlemen  were  found 
to  he  present: 

(!.  V.  Osborn,  Dayton,  C).,  Fish  Com- 
mi.ssioner. 

L.  D.  Huntington,  New  York,  Fish 
Commissioner. 


Wni.  H.  Bowman,  New  York,  Fish 
( 'Ommissioner. 

Samuel  Wilmot,  Ottawa,  Canada,  Su- 
perintendent of  Fish  Culture  of  the  De- 
partment of  Marine  and  Fisheries  of 
Canada. 

Edward  Harris,  Toronto,  Ont. 

Thomas  Marks,  Tort  Arthur,  Ont. 

F.  W.  Gould,  Searsport,  Me.,  Commis- 
sioner of  Sea  and  Shore  Fisheries  of 
Maine. 

\V.  P.  Andrus,  Minneajiolis,  Minn. 

Dr.  Robert  Ornisby  Sweeny,  Sr.,  Du- 
luth,  Minn.,  president  Minnesota  (lame 
and  Fish  Commission. 

Herscliel  Whitaker,  Detroit,  Michigan 
Fish  Commission. 

J.  C.  Parker,  Grand  Rapids,  Michigan 
Kish  Commissioner. 

Hoyt  Post,  I)(!troit,  .Micthigan  Fish 
Commissioner. 

W.  B.  Wells,  Chatham,  Ontario  Fish 
and  Game  Commissioner. 

Charles  S.  Ham[)t()n,  Petoskey,  Mich- 
igan Fish  and  (iame  Warden. 

Frank  X.  (Mark,  Northville,  Mich,, 
I'nited  States  Fish  Commission. 

Krank  J.  Amsden,  Rochester,  N.  Y., 
Cheajx'i'  PVxid  Fish  .Association. 

C.  I>I.  Keyes,  Sandusky,  Ohio. 

John  J.  Speed,  Detroit. 

Hon.  ^V.  AV.  (rridin,  Detroit. 

Wm.  Dujiont,  Detroit. 

A.  G.  McD(Muil<l,  Detroit,  manager 
Hnffalo  Fish  Co. 

John  Zimmerman.  Detroit. 

Hon.  Otto  il.  Ru,sch,  Detroit. 

C.  H.  Moore,  Detroit. 

Hon.  George  C.  (ireen,  Detroit. 

Wni.  Craig,  Detroit. 

A.  Solomon,  Detroit. 

James  Craig,  Detroit. 

Hon.  L.  C.  Hough. 

Hon.  S.  R.  Kingsley. 

Chairman  Whitaker:  I  am  in  receipt 
of  a  large  number  of  letters,  a  few  of 
which  I  will  take  occasion  to  read  to 
yon . 

Letters  were  then  read  from  Mr. 
Kmory  D.  Potter,  of  Toledo,  O.,  and 
others. 

Mr.  Green:  1  have  a  letter  here  in 
answer  to  one  1  wrote,  from  an  old  fish- 


/a 


ci'iiiiiii  of  thirty  y<'iirs'  (.'xpcricnc*'.  f 
woiilil  like  tf)  have  the  luttor  read  to  the 
confcrotK'c. 

Mr.  Wliitakcr:  No  doubt  the  confcr- 
eiico  would  he  j,dad  to  hear  it.  The  8e  ■- 
retary  will  j)U'ase  n-ad  it. 

The  Secretary  read  tlie  letter  of  Mr. 
licvi  Browu,  of  Sand  Beach,  as  follows: 

San'I)  Heach,  .Mich,  Dec.  19,  iS'.t2. 
Afi  .  (I'ri'cii  ; 

DiCAR  Sir— In  reply  to  your  letter  wiM  say  I 
am  (jflad  to  hear  (roiii  you.     I  wiU  give  you  my 
ideas  of  fishing  and  what  ought  10  be  done  in 
the  future  to  protect  the  hatcheries  and  fisli.     I 
/  have    fished  ahout,Jhirty    years    now,  and  you 

know  thsrflliave  always  utade  a"siiccesr  of  it. 
The  hatcheries  are  a  great  help  toward  increas- 
ing the  fish,  hut  unless  something  is  done  to 
protect  the  small  whitefish  we  have  for  a  number 
of  years  i)liiuted  -  ii  nnmV.er  of  millions  each  year 
I  —we  shall  fail.  We  find  that  these  fish  are 
I  ca\ight  when  ixily  from  one  to  two  i)OUuds  in 
J  weight,  as  you  know,  and  they  are  only  half 
grown.  For  one  place  th.?y  are  destroyed  in  .Sagi- 
naw Hay  by  the  tons  and  in  other  places  the 
same.  We  understand  that  the  small  mesh  has 
been  a  failure  in  the  way  of  protecting  the  small 
whitefish.  I  think  the  besl  way  is  to  put  a  fine 
on  the  man  who  catches  them,  also  on  the  con- 
sumer, or  who  ever  has  them  on  hand — any- 
thing under  one  and  a  half  pounds. 

Vr,a  know  these  small  fish  \>'hen  caught  could 
be  thrown  back  into  the  water  and  would  live. 
Fish  of  that  small  size  are  of  no  use  to  anybody. 
There  should  be  a  fine  of  Jioo  to  5500  for  any 
man  who  is  caught  with  them.  Unless  this  is 
done  the  fish  are  not  protected  much. 

I  think  the  fish  ought  to  have  a  rest  the  same 
as  the  game,  to  give  them  a  chance  to  gather  on 
their  feeding  grounds.  Now  there  are  fishing 
tugs  that  fish  the  year  round  unless  it  is  a  verj' 
hard  winter.  I  .im  not  talking  allogetherabout 
others,  as  I  fish  with'a  tug  and  sail  boats  my- 
self. I  can  make  a  success  of  it  if  I  have  five  or 
si.x  mouths  out  of  the  year,  aiul  others  should  be 
satisfied.  I  think  in  the  spring,  from  April  1st 
"^  to  July  1st,  and  in  the  fall,  from  Sept.  14th  to  Dec. 
ist,  should  be  a  close  season.  This  gives  us  three 
months  in  the  spring  and  three  months  in  the 
fall  to  fish.  That  is  six  months  to  fish,  and  that 
ought  to  satisfy  the  fisherman.  Some  may 
think  the  Canada  fishermen  will  have  a  better 
chance,  but  I  think  not,  for  as  they  hunt  them 
up  they  would  crowd  on  this  side.  The  fish 
work  the  same  as  the  game,  Some  fishermeti 
may  think  this  would  be  a  damage  to  them,  but 
the  price  of  the  fish  would  come  up  sol  think  it 
wonhi  be  a  benefit  to  all  the  fishermen.  Mr. 
dreen,  I  give  you  the  best  of  my  ideas,  and  per- 
haps yon  cau  better  them  in  some  places,  but  I 
hope  this  will  give  satisfaction  to  all.  Don't  for- 
get to  let  me  know  how  you  prosper  with  this, 
yours  respectfully, 

i:,EVI  BROWN. 


■<r  i*"  ■ 


,»    *■■*.    •»•!■ 


■  ■■W:- 


(■hairniaii:  (leiitleiiien.  we  have  pre- 
pared a  program  of  the  suhjects 
whieh  shouhl  bo  discussed  by  this  coii- 
fereuee,  wiiich  is  as  follows: 

TiriO  .NKCKSSITV  KOR  .\  .N  Kn'ICIK.VT  K.N- 
roRCKMlCNT  OK  LAWS  |!V  A  I'AII)  KISU 
AND    (1  A.MK    DEl'AHT.MKXT. 

I. 

1.  Should  the  Department  be  under  the 

Fish  Commission  ? 

2.  Number  of  Deputy  Wardens. 

;>.  CoinpiMisation  of  Chief  Warden  and 

Deputies. 
4.  Terms  of  oHice. 

II. 

1.  Should   there   be    a   close   season  for 

wliitetish  ? 

2.  If  yes,  what  shall  be  the  limit  ? 

15.  Shall  a  restriction  be  pat  u])on  the 
size  of  fish  to  l)e  taken  or  ha  1  in 
posssession  or  on  the  size  of  mesh  '.' 

4.  Penalties. 

III. 

Close  seasons  for  brook  trout,  grayling, 
California     trout,     brown     trout, 

f         Loch    Leven  trout.  Land  l^oeked 
salmon  and  small  moutlied  bass. 

I.  What  should  be  the  unifoi'm  close 
season  for  brook  trout,  California 
trout,  brown  trout.  Loch  Leven 
trout  anil  l..and   FiOcked  salmons. 

■2.  Black  bass. 

IV. 

(ta.mk — Close  seasons,  etc. 

Chairman  Whitaker:  In  some  re- 
spects, gentlemen,  the  first  subject  for 
our  discussion  and  considetjrimi'  itt  my 
oi)inion  is  one  of  the  mostipwf^j'talftt  we 
have  for  consideration  bere.  What  \\v 
need  to  do  is  to  agree  npoftt  a,  uniform 
fish  and  game  warden  law.  And  it 
should  not  be  a  fish  and  game  warden 
law  tliat  simply  provides  places  for  men 
who  do  not  perform  the  functions  of 
their  i)uti»i»r  rnfortnnately  for  the  State 
of  Michigan,  and  I  know  that  is  largely  so 
in  th4  State  of  0  lio  (I  think  their  law 
is  ver^v  much  the  same  as  ours),  our 
law  CfiUs  for  the  appointnient  of  a  (  hief 


'**■ 


'^^ 


and 


t 


warden  wIioho  I'oniptfnxation  is::«l,20()  a 
year,  and  is  paid  l)y  tin-  state.  It  per- 
mits the  appointment  of  not  more  than 
three  depnty  wardens  in  eaeli  eonnty  by 
the  chief  warden,  and  tiieir  coniijensa- 
tion  is  fixed  l)y  the  IJoard  of  iSupervisors. 
Tile  result  has  l)een  tiiat  we  have  al).so- 
hitely  no  enforcement  of  the  law,  he- 
cause  the  supervisors  will  fix  no  com- 
pensation, and  therefore  the  wardens 
are  simply  H<j;ure  heads.  What  the 
state  should  do,  in  my  opinion,  is  to 
pass  a  law  which  should  make  these 
wardens  paid  by  the  state — should  pay 
their  expenses  by  a  warrant  drawn  on 
the  State  Treasurer,  and  countersi<i;ned 
by  the  Game  \Varden-in-(!hief.  I  may 
have  s(jmethin<5'  further  to  say  upon  it, 
but  it  seisms  to  n)e  this  evil  may  be 
remedied  in  tliat  way. 

The  subject  is  now  o))en  for  your  dis- 
cu.ssion.  In  the  first  place  I  think  this 
subjectought  to  be  anticii)ate<ll)y  the  dis- 
cussion of  the  ([uestion,  should  we  a^^ree 
upon  ii  uniform  warden  law?  I  will  take 
the  liberty  of  calliufr  upon  one  or  two 
jrentlemen  whom  I  know  are  familiar 
with  the  enforcement  of  the  laws  in  their 
localities.  I  will  ask  Mr.  Wilmot  to 
give  us  the  workings  of  the  warden  law, 
so  far  as  he  is  informed  in  his  jurisdic- 
tion, and  to  talk  upon  the  matter  before 
us  as  in  his  judgment  he  should. 

Mr.  Wilraot:  .Mr.  Chairman  and  (ien- 
tlemen — 1  feel  a  good  deal  of  deference 
in  appearing  befoi%  you.  In  the  first 
place,  we  do  not'come  here  to  represent 
the  Province  of  Ontario  or  any  of  the 
l)rovinces  of  Canada.  We  come  here  on 
behalf  of  the  Dominion  Government,  to 
listen  to  what  may  he  said,  with  a  view, 
if  })ossible,  to  learn  something  and  to 
give  as  much  information  as  we  can,  but 
over  this  (piestion  of  wardenship  we 
have  no  jurisdiction  whatever.  The 
Dominion  of  Canada  has  had  laws  con- 
trolling these  matters  since  the  federa- 
tion, but  at  present  there  is  a  disi)ute 
arising  between  the  local  governments 
of  the  i>rovinces  and  the  <lominion  on 
that  ((uestion.  In  the  meantime,  the 
Ft'deral  (tovernment  is  making  what  are 
termed  the  fisheries   laws.     Thev  have 


for  several  years  aopointed  what  are 
terim-dtlu' fisheries  officers.  The  Domin- 
ion (jovernment  has  nothing  whatever 
to  do  with  the  game  laws.  They  are 
wholly  under  the  jurisdiction  of  \\w  f^f 
ii(*+m4*t^.  The  local  governments  of 
Cana<la  have  control  of  the  game  laws. 
Therefore,  the  proceedings  we  are  enter- 
ing ujjon  are  quite  beyoml  my  jurisdic- 
tion to  give  you  any  light  U|)on.  If  the 
ipiestion  comes  up  with  regard  to  the 
ai)i)ointment  of  the  fisheries  oHicers  I 
will  be  glail  to  gi\e  you  what  informa- 
tion I  can.  P>ut  it  is  beyond  my  power 
to  give  you  any  knowdedge  upcni  this 
subjt'ct  of  game  wardens,  bi-cause  we 
have  nothing  to  do  with  it.  If  we  hav(! 
any  representative  here  from  Ontario, 
perhajjs  he  can  do  so  In  the  mean 
time,  1  must  decline  to  discuss  that  sub- 
ject. 

I  might  also  state,  while  I  am  on  my 
feet,  that  I  notice  the  meeting  has  been 
called  the  International  Fisheries  Con- 
ference. At  first  I  was  under  the  im- 
pression that  it  wasn't  my  sphere  to  be 
here  at  all,  because  ^t  is  not  our  j)rov- 
incetodeal  with  international  questions. 
International  (piestions  can  be  dealt 
with  only  by  the  federal  officers  of  the 
Cnited  Slates  on  the  one  hand,  and 
(treat  Britain  on  the  other.  This  could 
hardly  be  (tailed  an  international  meet- 
ing. With  all  due  deference  to  the  In- 
ti'rnational  Fisheries  Conference,  I 
think  it  more  appropriate  to  i-'all  it  an 
Inter-state  State  Fisheries  Commission, 
in  which  the  states  proper  would  have 
an  opportunity  of  expressing  them- 
selves, but  international  action,  I  think, 
is  beyond  the  jurisdiction. of  any  of  us. 
We  in  Canada  have  to  leave  all  tho.se 
questions  to  a  higher  power— Great  Brit- 
ain. The  Province  of  Ontario  had  given 
information  to  you  previously  that  they 
were  desirous  of  havinga  meeting  of  this 
description,  The  Province  of  Ontario 
never  communicated  that  wish  tothe  Do- 
minion (Government.  We  never  had  any 
knowledge  of  it.  Conse(iuently  the  Do- 
minion Government  had  no  (communica- 
tion, and  reteivi'd  no  invitation  from 
the  previous  meetings  you  held,  which 


V. 


% 


y^ 


<l 


I  diiotncd  of  ji;rt'at  iiii|Mntai>i'('.  riiciiia- 
Hon  why  we  arc  Ihtc  Ih  this:  The  Do- 
iiiinidti  (iovt'rnmcnl  a|ii>oiiite(l  a  special 
coiimiiHsioii,  coiiHistint,'  of  myself  and 
my  cfdlcaKiies,  ^Fr.  Karris,  of  Toronto, 
and  Mr.  Marks,  of  I'ort  Artluir,  to  invos- 
ti^atc  matters  in  tlic  Province  of  On- 
tario with  a  view  of  ast'ertaininj;  what 
(^ould  l)e  done  to  improve  the  fisheries 
and  if  possible  to  do  away  witli  the 
cause  of  the  comi)laints  and  clamors 
that  now  exist  amonj^  the  fishermen  in 
their  work.  They  were  all  complainiu",' 
of  the  scarcity  of  fish.  They  were  all 
complaininjij  of  improper  close  seasons. 
And  that  special  c(>mmission  has  been 
eufja^'ed  during  the  last  few  vvei'ks  in 
taking  evidence  around  Lakes  Hrie, 
Huron,  the  Geitrgian  Jiay,and  a  portion 
of  hake  Ontario.  While  away  fnmi 
home  I  receive*!  your  kind  invitation  to 
attend  the  meeting,  but  could  not  ac- 
cept it  at  the  time,  because  our  duties 
did  not  extend  sufficiently  far  to  enable 
us  to  attend  meetings  of  this  kind.  I 
tlicrefore  telegrapfied  to  our  Minister  of 
Marine  and  I'isheries  asking  whether 
we  would  be  permitted  to  come  here 
and  listen  to  what  miglit  be  said,  with 
a  view  of  being  benefited  by  any  expres- 
sions that  come  forth  h''re.  His  con- 
sent was  given  ;  he  telegraphed,  "  Hy  all 
means  attend  the  meeting,"  and  hence 
we  are  liere.  When  you  get  down  .k 
the  (juestion  of  fisheries  f  will  be  glad 
to  discuss  that,  but  it  would  be  out  of 
place  to  say  any  more 

(Chairman  VVhitaker:  I  will  say  to  the 
representatives  from  the  Dominion  Gov- 
ernment that  we  are  exceedingly  glad  to 
have  them  here,  and  we  hoix-  they  will 
participate  in  every  subject  that  may 
come  up  for  discussion.  This  child,  the 
International  Fisheries  Conference,  was 
baptised  without  my  consent.     I  did  not 


and  it  has  all  been  tending  toward  the 
general  good  of  all  in  that  line.  We  ask 
((Very  person  who  is  interesteil  in  tliese 
(juestions  to  be  present  with  us  at  our 
meetings  and  express  their  sentiments 
freely.  It  binds  no  one,  but  if  by  these 
conferences  good  can  l)e  brought  forth, 
the  states  and  the  provinces  are  so  much 
benefited. 

I  am  aware  of  the  fact  that  the  State 
of  New  York  has  one  of  the  most  efli- 
cient  lish  and  game  warden  systems  of 
any  of  the  states.  We  wonld  be  very 
glad  to  hear  from  any  of  the  uuMubersof 
the  New  York  commission  iipon  tluit 
matter.  The  ((uestion  befoie  us  is:  The 
necessity  for  an  ethcient  enforcement  of 
laws  by  a  i)ai<l  Fish  and  (Jame  Depart- 
ment. 1.  Should  tlu'  department  be 
under  the  I'ish  Commission?  2.  The 
number  of  d«'puty  wardens.  :>.  Com- 
pensation of  Chief  Warden  and  depu- 
ties.    4.  Terms  of  office. 

I  will  call  upon  Mr.  Huntington  to 
exi)lain  the  working  of  the  New  York 
law. 

Mr.  Huntington  :  To  this  (piestion  that 
you  propose  to  discuss:  Should  the 
department  be  under  the  Fish  Commis- 
sion? I  should  unhesitatingly  say,  Yes. 
Our  Chairman  here  has  the  law  of  the 
State  of  New  York  with  him,  and  it  has 
been  but  slightly  changed  in  relation  to 
the  fish  and  game  protectors  from  the 
law  that  has  existed  for  some  few  years, 
but  under  the  provisions  of  the  Codifica- 
tion l>ill  we  revisetl  ourentire  game  laws 
of  the  State  of  New  York'at  the  last  ses- 
sion of  the  legislature,  and  enlarged  the 
powers  of  the  commissioners.  I'nder 
that  law,  which  has  been  in  existence 
since  ISfay  last,  the  old  system  was  im- 
])roved  wherever  it  was  found  to  be 
defective,  and  the  new  system  has  been 
ound  to  Ite  verv  effective. 


baptised  without  my  consent.     I  did  not      iound  to  Ite  very  enective. 

know  what  its  name  was  untillong  after^^     F  would  briefiy  state  the  workings  of 

the  act  was  jierformed.     It   makes  buTy  our  law  thus:    The   foundation  of  it  is 


very  little  difierence,  however,  what  its 
name  may  l)e,  the  lu-oceedings  that  have 
been  liad  at  these  meetings  have  been 
in  tlie  nature  of  a  conference  of  states 
and  provinces,  or  whatever  you  may  he 
pleased  to  call  them,  of  different  nations. 


this:  The  api>oiiitment  of  the  fish  and 
game  jirotectors,  as  they  are  termed,  is 
left  with  the  commissioners  of  fisheries. 
Within  our  state  there  are  twei  ty  war- 
dens, and  I  would  state  that  their  terms 
of  office  are  subject  to  the  control  of  the 


n/ 


/ 


ooiniiiissionerH;  that  tliey  appoint  or 
they  remove  for  cause.  We  have  uiuler 
this  system  a  chief  game  protector,  and 
the  other  game  protectors  an;  directly 
lUKler  him.  When  any  cases  of  serious 
complaint  arise  we  investijiate  tliem  and 
refer  them  to  the  chief  warden  or  j;anie 
protector,  and  lu'  nuikes  a  tliomugh  in- 
vestigation and  re])orts,  and  then  we 
take  the  matter  in  haiul,  and  if  \vc  have 
any  reason  to  believe  he  has  been  dere- 
lict in  his  duties,  we  dismiss  him  and  en- 
<leavor  to  get  a  better  nian  in  his  })lace. 
The  state  is  divided  olf  into  districts  as 
compact  and  as  easy  of  access  as  possi- 
ble. There  are  nineteen  of  these  dejtart- 
menls  or  districts,  and  to  each  one  of 
them  is  assigne<l  a  protector,  and  liis 
duties  are  to  carry  out  the  game  laws  in 
that  district.  It  makes  larger  districts 
even  after  dividing  the  territory  of  the 
State  of  New  York  oti"  inU)  nineteen 
spaces  than  is  convenient,  l)ut  it  is 
the  best  we  can  do.  The  Chii'f  Protec- 
tor visits  them  and  takes  general  control 
over  them,  and  wherever  he  has  any 
reason  to  beli»ve  that  further  vigilance 
is  recpiired,  or  if  there  is  any  violation  of 
the  game  laws:  going  on  in  any  particu- 
lar district,  he  takes  the  matter  in  hand 
and  he  may  call  any  one  of  the  protec- 
tors from  one  district  to  another  to 
prevent  the  violation  of  the  laws.  The 
pay  of  the  game  warden  or  game  pro- 
tector is  fl,0(H)  a  year,  and  he  has  his 
traveling  expenses  paid.  Flis  traveling 
expenses  amount  to  but  very  little,  for 
there  is  no  railroad  in  the  Stato  of  New 
York  ])ut  what  cheerfully  gives  him 
passes.  I  have  no  doubt  he  has  passes 
to-day  in  his  pocket  over  every  railroad 
in  the  State  of  New  York.  The  nineteen 
general  game  protectors  receive  a  com- 
pensation of  $500  a  year,  and  traveling 
expenses,  and  when  convictions  are 
made  and  penalties  are  intiicted  and  col- 
lected, the  exi)enses  of  the  court  are  de- 
ducted from  that,  and  a  moiety  that  is 
so  collected  goes  eventually  into  the 
hands  of  the  fisheries  commission,  and 
from  there,  upon  properly  endorsed  pa- 
pers by  the  Chief  Protector,  the  protec- 
tor who  makes  the  arrest  and  causes  the 


conviction  receives  the  moiety,  the  bal- 
ance of   the   penalty   .so   collected    is   a 
reserve  fund  for  purposes  of  emjdoyinu,       y^ 
where  necessary,  coun-sel  for  protection. ^>i^ 

That,  gentlenuMi,  is  the  system  of  pro-  \ 
tection  that  exists  in  the  State  of  .Ni'w 
York.  The  comnussioners  have  every 
reason  to  believe  that  it  will  be,  and  is  in 
fact  to-(hiy,  a  very  etiicient  system.  We 
have  reports  from  every  direction  in  our 
state,  and  when  we  hear  an  inspector  is 
not  doing  his  duty  we  investigate  the  re- 
ports, and  sonu'times  we  lind  there  is 
some  reason  in  it,  but  too  freipiently  we 
find  there  is  some  nialiee,  or  some  other 
motive  than  a  proper  one  which  has 
actuatt'd  the  complaint.  Perhaps  it  is 
till'  very  elHciency  of  the  protector  him- 
self that  leads  to  the  complaint  against 
him.  We  find  the  warden  law  etii- 
cient; we  timl  the  administration  of  it 
t<i-day,  with  i)erhaps  few  exceptions, 
very  satisfactory,  although  I  say,  in  my 
capacity  as  a  commissioner,  that  under 
till'  large  powers,  umler  the  increased 
niunber  of  game  protectors,  and  under 
the  new  code,  which  is  plain,  clear  and 
concise,  particularly  as  to  the  game 
laws,  it  reciuiri's  some  little  modifica- 
tion, more  particularly  in  phraseology. 
The  bill  W'as  two  years  in  getting 
through  the  legislature.  Many  of  the 
members  or  their  immediate  friends 
wished  to  get  their  little  special  mat- 
ters for  their  localit}'^  through,  and  the 
bill  has  been  amended  so  much  that 
its  symmetry  has  been  somewhat  de- 
stroyed and  interfered  with,  but  that 
can  be  easily  rectitiivl.  We  have  every 
reason  to  believe  that  the  working  of 
the  present  system,  with  some  slight 
modifications  where  there  is  vagueness 
in  the  construction  of  the  law,  will  be 
attended  to  this  winter,  and  we  will 
have  a  system  of  protection  within 
the  State  of  New  York  that* is  good 
and  efticient.  I  am  a  great  believer  in  / 
the  idea  that  the  game  wardens  should  / 
be  directly  under  the  control  of  the  fish  \ 
commissioners.  I  do  not  see  how  it  can  j 
be  efficient  in  any  other  way. 

Mr.  Osborn :     What  becomes  of  the 
other  half  of  the  moiety  you  spoke  of? 


^^r.  lIuntiii(,'t(>M :  It  is  left  in  (lie 
IiuikIh  of  till!  coiiimisHioiierH  us  a  spc- 
cial  fund  for  tli(^  pinpOH*'  of  ('ini)loyiii;; 
roiiiisci  ill  iiii|i(»rtiint  caHCH. 

Mr.  (►sliorii:  It  is  iihsoliitcly  iiiidcr 
lli(>  control  df  tlic  coinniissioncrs? 

Mr.  liiiniinjrton :  Yes,  sir.  \\\'  have 
two  or  tiirct'  important  rases  now, 
iiml  w<'  iiavc  \{)  use  thai  inon(>v  in 
tiiat   way. 

Tlic  Cliairinan:  The  mutter  is  now 
ojieii  for  ihsciission,  and  we  ho|)e  all 
will  |iartici])ate  in  it,  contininjj;  theni- 
HvlvOH  to  tln'  (jui'stion  :  "  The  MeeeHsity 
for  an  l'',Hicient  Knfoi<'emeiit  of  Laws  by 
a  paid  Fish  and  (iaine  l)e|iartment." 
Mr.  Bowman,  how  tloes  the  moiety 
system  operate  in  New  York?  Will 
yon  state  whether  prosecutions  have 
been  made,  and  with  what  result,  ami 
whether,  so  fur  as  tlu^  seizure  of  nets 
is  con(!eriiod,  the  law  has  been  (en- 
forced ? 

Mr.  liowman  :  So  far  as  that  is  con- 
rerne<l  I  will  say  that  our  wardens  were 
tirst  appointed  by  the  (iovernor.  He 
had  the  appoi'itment  of  the  diU'erent 
wardens,  and  it  was  more  or  less  i)oliti- 
cal  at  that  time.  Subsequently  the  ap-. 
pointment  of  the  wanlens  was  <iiven  to 
the  Fish  (Commission,  and  they  were 
increased  to  twenty,  a,<-'  has  lieen  stated. 
The  state  was  subdivided  by  the  Chief 
Protector,  each  havinji;  control  of  his 
own  district,  and  the  chief  having;  the 
rijrht,  where  one  was  too  well  acciuainted, 
to  import  to  another  district  one  or  two, 
and  make  a  raid  here  and  there.  Tn 
almost  every  district  thronsihout  the 
state  we  have  reports  every  month,  at 
our  meetings,  from  each  game  protector. 
They  report  the  number  of  nets  Sv  'zed, 
the  number  of  actions  commenced,  and 
the  amount  of  work  generally  done  by 
them.  And  in  almost  every  one  of  these 
reports  ^ou  will  find  seizure  of  nets  of 
fykes,  gill  nets  and  set  lines,  by  every 
protector  through()Ut  the  state.  They 
are  taken  before  a  magistrate  and  de- 
stroyed. He  destroys  them.  So  there 
is  no  (lue^tion  about  tliat.  At  first  we 
had  some  dithculty  in  procnrfng  convic- 
tions.    Actions    would  be  commenced 


before  a  justice  and  he  would  call  a  jury 
in  that  locality  that  would  invariably 
sympathize  with  the  lishernien,  and  ver- 
dicts were  rendere<l  by  these  juries  with- 
out any  reurard  to  evidence  whatever, 
lint  latterly  I  think  we  have  bei  n  gain- 
ing, and  the  opinion  is  growing  through- 
out the  entire  state  that  it  is  alisolutely 
necessary  to  enforce  tin;  game  laws  and 
jirotect  not  only  the  tish  but  the  game 
of  our  state  to  prcvt'iit  it  from  being  en- 
tirely destroyed. 

The  .Atlirondack  regions  are  l)eing 
fornuMi  into  a  jiark.  <  >ur  state  has  taken 
hold  of  it,  and  it  is  built  U|)  now  with 
cottages,  almost  everywhere  wlu-rever 
there  is  a  valuable  site.  All  throu<ih 
the  .Vilirondacks  you  will  tind  cottages 
where  some  gentleman  takes  his  family 
to  spend  the  summer.  I  can  state  from 
observation  that  the  deer  of  that  local- - 
ity  have  doubled  within  the  last  five 
years  under  this  protective  system,  and 
I  am  very  glad  to  say  that  the  guides  of 
that  region  have  become  protectors  with 
us.  They  believe  in  it.  The  express 
companies  have  been  sued  by  us  for 
traiis))()rtinj:  f-'imie,  and  we  are,  we 
think,  enforcing  the  game  laws  by  look- 
ing as  well  after  the  express  companies 
as  the  poachers.  The  poachers  wont 
kill  the  game  unless  they  can  sell  it.  If 
we  can  prohibit  the  transportation  and 
prohibit  the  sale  in  the  markets  we  take 
away  the  inducement  to  the  ])oacher  to 
kill  the  gtiine,  and  one  poacher  who  is 
ac(|uainted  with  the  countrv  will  kill 
more  deer  in  one  day  than  a  hundred 
sjiortsmen  that  come  from  New  York. 
The  deer  laugh  at  the  sportsman.  They 
are  not  afraid  of  the  New  York  sports- 
man at  all,  but  when  a  man  has  been 
brought  n[)  in  that  country,  and  knows 
the  habits  of  the  deer,  he  always  comes 
home  with  venison.  He  knows  where 
they  are,  and  one  such  man  destroys 
more  tieer,  as  I  say,  than  a  hundred 
sportsmen.  But  if  he  knows  lu?  can't 
sell  them,  he  won't  destro}  them.  They 
occasionally  shoot  one  for  food.  In  that 
way  we  have  prevented  a  large  number 
'A  deer  from  being  taken  out  of  the 
orest.     And  it  is  the  same  with  trout. 


? 


9 


iipaiiicH 

•K  wont 
it.  If 
II  II  lid 

we  take 
lier  to 
who  is 

ill    kill 

11 1  id  rod 
York. 
Tiiey 
sports- 
<  been 
knows 
comes 
where 

estroys 
ndred 
can't 
They 

In  that 
ninber 
of  the 
trout. 


'Pile  trout  about  the  Kiiltoii  ciiain  of 
lakes  where  we  have  been  stocking:  for 
tile  lust  ten  years,  more  than  any  other 
placi'  in  the  Adirondack  rej^ioii,  have 
doubled  within  the  hist  five  years.  Tlic 
close  season  is  obscrvcil.  They  are  jiro- 
teeted.  They  arc  watciicd  closely.  \\'c 
dfi  not  allow  them  to  lish  until  tlu'  sea- 
son opi'iis  on  the  loth  of  April.  The^ 
close  season  is  respected,  antl  we  are  do- 
iny;  throiijrh  the  protectors  an  admirable 
work  in  the  State  ol"  New  York.  My 
own  jud^mi'nt  is  that  you  may  turn 
loose  as  many  fish  as  you  please  in  l^ake 
Krie  or  Lake  Ontario,  and  through  the 
did'ereiit  lakes  of  the  states,  and  if  yon 
allow  poachers  to  «o  alon<,'  and  tak*- 
them  out,  without  fear  of  prosecution  or 
arrest  and  penalty,  it  is  entirely  useless 
to  propa),'ate  and  distribute.  They  can 
tak((  out  in  one  week  more  fish  than  we 
can  put  in  in  a  year.  They  even  have 
j<oiie  so  far  in  our  state  as  to  use  dyna- 
mite and  other  explosives.  They  use 
nets.  1  have  seen  a  net  with  (irst  a 
large  mesh,  and  about  a  foot  from  it  a 
mesh  of  one  and  a  half  inches,  and  then 
a  foot  from  that  a  mesh  of  an  inch,  and 
they  stretch  that  across  the  water  and 
they  take  out  everything.  The  first 
mesh  took  out  the  large  fish,  the  iie.xt  a 
smaller,  and  the  next  a  still  smaller  li.'^h. 
Nets  of  that  kind  will  take  out  uU  thi- 
fisli  in  a  stream. 

Our  warden  law  has  worked  very  sat- 
isfactorily with  us,  and  I  say  it  has  not 
only  protected  the  game  and  the  fish, 
but  it  has  also  educated  the  people. 
We  have  a  far  better  feeling  among 
the  people,  among  the  farmers,  among 
the  guides  of  the  Adirondacks,  and 
among  all  the  fishermen  of  the  state 
in  favor  of  protection  than  we  had  a 
few  years  ago.  I  think  that  perhaps 
is  the  best  bulwark  we  can  have.  If 
we  can  educate  the  people  and  get  an 
intelligent  public  feeling  on  this  sub- 
ject, we  have  a  way  in  which  our  tish 
and  game  will  be  protecrted  in  the  fu- 
ture. The  only  way  to  have  anj-  tranie 
or  fish  in  the  future  is  to  jireserve 
and  protect  it  now,  and  we  will  have 
very   little    trouble   in    the    future.      I 


think  public  opinion  is  growing  very 
rapidly  in  our  favor,  and  in  a  few 
years  you  will  liud  game  clubs  in 
every  county.  There  an;  many  game 
clubs  ill  our  state  now,  and  they  are 
eiliicatiiig  public  opinion  up  to  that 
point  where  1  think  we  will  have  far 
better  lishiiig  and  shooting  than  we 
have  had  for  years    be 'ore. 

Mr.  Iliiutington :  Allow  me  to  sii[)- 
pli'iiieiit  my  remarks  by  calling  atten- 
tion t(.i  one  point.  \\'e  have  umler  the 
codilied  bill  which  has  been  in  force 
since  the  fifth  day  of  May  last,  (me  sec- 
tion that  is  the  lic-t  section  we  have  in 
llie  liill,  and  that  makes  this  provision, 
which  1  look  upon  as  an  admirable 
thing  in  tiie  bill  for  the  protection  of 
our  game  and  iish.  It  is  a  sei'liou  which 
gives  the  coniinissioiier  the  power,  on 
the  application  of  tlie  Hoard  of  .Supervi- 
sors, or  of  any  incorporated  association 
for  the  proti'ction  of  game  and  lish,  to 
aiipoint  as  sub-deputies  such  persons 
whose  names  are  subiiiitted  to  them, 
who  are  chithed  with  the  full  power  of 
the  game  protectors.  These  men  receive 
no  |)ay  or  comi)ensatioii  from  the  state, 
with  the  exception  of  the  iiioietx  in  case 
of  conviction.  We  have  within  our 
state  a  large  number  and  rajiidly  in- 
creasing number  of  societies  or  incor- 
])or;'*  d  organizations,  lisliiiig  clubs  and 
hunting  clubs,  and  .so  on,  and  by  incor- 
porating them  under  the  state  law, 
wliicli  is  very  little  trouble  or  exjiense, 
these  clubs  employ  some  good  and  wor- 
thy men,  they  have  them  in  their  em- 
ploy, and  they  pay  them,  but  thosi'  nu'u 
can  ])rotect  their  property.  Those  nu'ii 
are  emjiloyed  and  paid  by  the  club, 
good,  faithful  men,  and  they  think  a 
good  deal  of  them,  and  they  are  ready 
and  willing  to  render  any  assistance,  but 
they  were  powerless,  they  had  no  power 
of  arrest.  Now,  by  the  making  of  an 
application,  and  sending  the  namcor 
names  in  to  the  commissioners,  the  com- 
missioners have  the  power  to  appoint 
them,  and  give  them  their  certilicate, 
and  they  become  virtually  a  portion  of 
the  regular  force  of  the  i)rotectors  of  the 
state.     Of  coursi'  those  men  are  alroadv 


^/' 


10 


(MUjiloyed  by  tlio  tlul),  uiul  tlu'V  uri'only 
too  gliul  to  havt'  them  (iiialilii'(l  witli 
autiiority  to  inaki'  arrt'sts,  ami  they 
niako  ariH'sts  ami  may  follow  oH'cndt'rs 
aiiywlicn"  i!i  the  stato,  ami  in  cast;  of 
coiivk'tioii  flic  law  applit'H  iii  the  matU'i" 
of  inoii'ty  the  same  as  to  tlio  rcjiiilar 
force,  'riu'y  'Tct'ivi'  one-half  of  tlu' 
moiety  that  is  ])ai<{  to  the  coininissioii; 
ors,  ami  that  is  the  onl_y  eompeiisatiou 
they  .uet,  eoiiset|uently  they  are  not  one 
eent  expense  to  the  state.  Now,  siiiee 
the  (irst  of  May  last,  when  this  oeeame 
a  law,  we  have  had  apj)lieatioiis  and 
havi'  a|>;>oinfed  ovei"  forty  of  siuh  in- 
spectors, and  I  believe  in  less  than  a 
year  we  shall  havt'  lifty  if  not  a  hnndri'd 
of  such  ;iood,  ellieient  men.  I  think 
that  is  one  of  the  best  provisions  of  the 
law  in  our  state. 

Mr.  Osborn:  There  is  no  limit  to  the 
nninber  you  can  appoint? 

.Mr.  lluntintrton:  No,  sir.  itrestsen- 
tirely  with  the  Commission.  I  will 
state  that  the  Webb  Company  ii.  their 
}>r"servi',  have  apjjointed  six  men,  ami 
they  li'c  ellieient  men,  and  those  men 
are  obliged  to  report,  under  the  system, 
asare  the  regularinspectors.  And  thosi' 
men  are  not  costing  the  state  one  cent, 
'''he  South  Side  Club  iiave  four. 

.Mr.  Osborn;  Can  they  be  sent  out  of 
their  districts  the  same  as  the  regular 
j)iotectors'.' 

Mr.  Huntington:  They  never  do  send 
them  out,  but  they  have  the  right  to 
send  them  out. 

Mr.OsboiMi:  I'rovided  they  want  togo? 

Mr.  Huntington:  Yes,  and  they  are 
'(required  to  niaki^  nu)nthlN  reports  to 
the  Chief  (Jaine  Proiecto;'.  We  get  tlie 
reiiorts  of  all  the  game  protectors,  and 
from  the  rejiorts  we  see  the  reciu'd  of 
tlie  men,  and  wc  know  whether  they 
are  perl'orndng  their  ilnty  oi'  not.  It 
helps  us  nuiterially. 

Tlie  ('hairman:  The  (I'.iestion  is  still 
before  the  conference,  and  is  op  >n  for 
discussion  ;  the  t'esirability  of  a  uniform 
system  of  game  wardens. 

.Mr.  Tost:  In  order  to  bring  the  nuit- 
ter  before  the  uu-eting,  I  oiler  this  reso- 
lution: 


\ 


i 


lii'nuln,!.  Tliat  it  is  the  sense  of  this 
conl'erenct'  that  the  necessity  exists  for 
an  ellicieut  and  uniform  enforcement 
of  protective  laws  by  a  paid  lish  and 
ganu'  department  on  the  gen.eral  basis 
of  the  XewYork  h'w. 

Tlie  resolution  was  duly  seconded,  ami 
di^'lartMl  open  for  discussion. 

I>r.  Sweeny,  of  Miuuiisutu;  I  would 
like  to  recite  our  experience  and  wl:at 
we  have  tiie<l  to  do  in  regard  to  this  mat- 
ter, rpto  two  years  ago,  in  the  State  of 
Minne,sota,  we  hail  a  fish  commission 
whose  duties  were  simply  to  propagate 
and  distribute  tish.  We  had  no  special 
jurisdiction  over  the  game  or  the  tii-h. 
The  general  law  was  that  every  sheriti' 
and  police  oilicer  was  a  game  warden. 
Theconsivpicnce  was  they  industriou  'v 
let  it  alone.  Two  years  ago  the  Fish 
Commission  was  reorganized  into  what 
is  designated  as  the  'bum'  and  Fish 
Commission,  and  they  had  authority  to 
ap))oint  a  game  \  arden  and  four  depu- 
ties, and  when  we  i-amt-  to  look  at  the 
matter  the  amount  of  money  at  our  dis-  ^ 
I)osal  was  so  limitetl  (we  had  bnt.'?10,0()0) 
to  propogate  and  di.-;tribute  lish,  and  to 
watch  the  gauu",  that  we  found  it  utter- 
ly impossible  so  to  do.  We  ai)pointed  a 
ganu'  warden  who  had  jurisdiction  over 
the  whole  state.  I'mler  our  law  we 
have  authority  to  appoint  spec'al  war- 
dens, in  any  ani!  every  county,  a  id  s])e- 
cial  wardens  for  any  county,  so  that  he 
can  lollow  a  law  breaker  and  poacher 
from  one  county  to  a.iother,  bnt  liy 
some  oversight  in  the  law  he  has  no 
auth.u'ity  to  arrt'st  any  more  than  any 
other  citizen.  .^  nd  we  have  lonnd  many 
defects  in  that  way  that  are  brought 
out  out  in  the  ease  of  an  attempted  con- 
viciion.  We  are  working  under  that 
law,  and  have  been  by  appointing  special 
deputy  wardens  in  the  counties,  and  in 
some  counties  we  have  lour  or  live  or 
six.  And  in  otliiT  localities  there  is  one 
d'.puty  warden  that  has  to  look  after 
two  or  three  counties.  We  found  that 
our  money  would  not  allow  us  to  pay 
salaries  to  llu'se  speeia!  wardens.  Wi' 
pay  their  actual  exjienses  that  they 
have   borne  on  itemi/,o<l  vouchers,  and 


^ 


4- 


1   I 


u 


e  of  this 
"xists  for 
troeiiu'iit 
ii^-li  and 
■rul  basis 

i<I«(i,  aixt 

I  \v<m)(l 
nd  what 
til  is  inat- 
'  Statt'  of 
iiiiiissioii 
ropajiate 
I)  special 
the  li^h. 
y  sheriti" 

wanh'ii. 
^triou  'v 
lie  Fisii 
ito  what 
ml  Fisii 
lority  to 
ir  (lopn- 
k  at  the 

our  (lis-  J 

.•i?10,()()0) 
,  and  to 
it  utter- 
ointed  a 
ion  over 

law  we 
ial  war- 
i id  spe- 
that   lie 

loaciier 

Hit    by  A:^ 

lias  no 

an  any 

\  many 

•roufjrht 

I'd  con- 

r    that 

special 

and  in 

live  or 

'  is  one 

k  after 

id  that 

to  pay 

-.     We       ; 

t    they     \. 

rs,  and      y 


we  allow  then,  two  dollars  u  day  for 
^^the  time  actually  enijiloyed  in  followinir 
;  or  arrestiiijj;,  and  i!i  any  case  of  convic- 
tion we  give  them  a  reward  of  .*-")•  We 
tind  in  this  as  in  any  other  employment 
that  soiiu'  are  !j;ood  for  nothing;,  utterly 
inelh(!ient.  while  others  are  ellicient  and 
do  good  work.  Tiiey  have  turned  in 
thousands  of  yards  of  nets  tons,  and  set 
lines,  and  every  conceivable  trap  for 
killing  fish. 

These  wardens  aiH>  appointeil  on  the 
recommendation  of  the  citizens  of  the 
state,  some  on  the  recommendation  of 
game  dubs,  and  they  are  removable  for 
cause.  If  they  are  ellicient  they  hohl 
their  ollice  for  tw(^  years.  In  case  of 
conviction  and  fni(>.  tlu'  lines  are  tnriu'd 
into  the  State  Treasury  to  the  credit  of 
the  (iaiiie  and  Fish  ('onimission.  We 
tind  in  our  attemi)ts  to  regulate  the 
depredation;;  that  th(>  greatest  obstacle 
to  the  enfoiHenient  of  the  laws  are  the 
V,. L  j)etty  odicers,  county  otlicers,  justices  of 
\  tlie  jieace.  Some  of  them  have  instantly 
decidi'd  the  law  unconstitutional,  and 
dismissed  the  charge.  Others  dismiss 
them  with  a  tine  of  a  dollar  or  lifty  cents. 
In  one  instance  where  I  had  at  least  ten 
men  taken  before  a  justice  of  the  peace 
for  shooting  moose,  then  jn'ohibited  for 
a  period  of  ten  years,  our  warden  was 
admonished  he  ought  to  be  in  belter 
nusitiess,  and  to  let  these  fellows  go, 
there  was  plenty  of  ganu'.  1  am  ,sorr\ 
to  sav  that  in  most  instances  the  vio- 
lato>'s  of  the  law  are  frequently  en- 
couraged by  the  game  peoiile.  They 
furnish  them  with  nets  and  suggest  to 
them  where  there  is  good  lishing.  and 
say  to  them,  we  do  not  know  where  you 
are  g<»ing  to  fish,  but  we  buy  all  the  tish 
and  game  you  can  furnish.  They  aic 
shijipiug  niiitbiii  (?l  done  uji  in  sacks 
that  has  been  killeil  since  the  lirat  of 
this  month.  We  have  found  out  in  try- 
ing to  prosecute  these  depredators  that 
our  law  is  woefully  inellicien't,  so  much 
so  that  we  have  detv'rniined  to  modify 
and  rearrange,  and  stren-'tlien  the  law 
in  every  possible  way.    V 

I  am  very  sorry   that/ our  treasurer, 
Mr.  Aiidrus,  is  not  here.     He  was  to  be 


here,  lie  was  the  chairman  of  the  com- 
mittee on  the  revision  of  the  laws,  and 
he  could  give  you  some  informatifUi. 
We  had  recently  a  convention  in  Min- 
neapolis with  reiiresenlatives  from  Da- 
kota, Wisconsin,  Iowa  and  other  states, 
and  wi'  had  hoped  to  have  Michigan 
there  also.  We  have  drawn  very  largely 
ou  the  New  York  ga'.iie  laws,  aiitl  tlu' 
laws  or  resolutions  that  we  presented  to 
the  meeting  seemed  to  be  accejitable  to 
all,  and  the  result  was  they  appointed  a 
committee  of  strong  men  to  see  the 
members  of  the  begi.-ilalure  and  urge 
the  adoption  of  these  laws.  There  will 
be  slight  modilications  to  suit  the  difl'er- 
t'lit  states,  but  there  is  a  I'eeling  and  tlis- 
p"sition  to  have  a  unif(uniity  in  the 
game  law  so  that  a  man  can't  shoot  in 
Wisconsin  ami  run  ovei  in  Minnesota 
and  escafie  their  wanlens.  The  hnvs 
will  be  maile  unform,  and  the  depreda- 
tors will  not  so  easily  escaiie.  That 
very  same  resolution  is  l)eing  printe<l 
and  is  being  sent  to  the  ditl'erent  states, 
and  1  tliiiik  all  you  gi>ntlemen  will  be 
alile  to  see  what  the  propost'd  action 
will  be.  .Mr.  .Vudriis  may  possibly  be 
here  to-morrow.  I  hope  he  will,  lie 
iiad  .some  inisiness  on  hand  that  <le- 
taiiied  him;  if  h<' arrives  here  with  some 
of  those  copies,  you  will  see  what  we 
prop(;se. 

Mr.  Wiiitaker ;  What  is  the  compen- 
sation of  your  wanleu'.' 

Mr.  Sweeny:    He  is  paid  Sl,,")fM»  a  year. 

("hairniau  Wiiitaker:  How  are  the 
deputies  paid  ? 

Mr.  Sweeny:  They  are  paid  their 
actual  expenses,  twixlollars  a  <lay,  while 
they  are  in  actual  service,  ami  if  they 
make  a  c<inviction  we  give  them  $2")  for 
each,  conviction,  and  two  dollars  a  day 
in  ailditio"  for  tlieir  servictis.  That  is 
for  their  time,  and  their  statement  of 
expenditures  must  be  itemized  and 
swoiU  to.  We  have  found  that  to  be  a 
very  good  plan. 

Chairman  Wiiitaker:  The  subject  is 
still  open  for-  discussion.  We  would 
like  to  Ileal'  from  !lie  Sea  and  Shore 
Fisheries  Commissioner  of  Maine,  Mr. 
tiould. 


i'2 


^~ 


Dr.  (iuiild:  I  did  not  (tomi'  iuTc  witli 
the  id'ja  of  siiyinj,'  aiiythiiij,',  l)nt  rather 
as  a  listt'iuT,  but  I  will  way  tliis:  The 
warden  sy^tc^in  of  Maine  differs  from 
all  the  other  states.  We  liave  a  ^rood 
many  wardens  there,  and  the  way  they 
are  appointed  is  this:  In  the  first  phice 
they  are  rccoMiniendcd  by  two-thirds  or 
rather  a  majority  of  the  Board  of  I'^ish 
C!ommissioners.  i\\n\  their  names  are 
l)res('i:te(I  to  the  ( Jovernor  and  he  makes 
the  appointment,  and  the  nomination 
has  to  be  confirmed  by  the  Council.  We 
pay  them  two  dollars  a  day  and  their 
expenses,  they  bein^  reipiired  to  render 
an  account  at  the  close  of  each  (piarter. 
The  account  must  be  itemized  and  ap- 
proveil  l)y  the  Commissioni'r  and  sent 
by  iiim  to  the  Secretary  of  State  to  be 
a[)proveil  ))y  him.  They  are  recjuired  to 
send  a  daily  re])ort  to  the  (,'ommissioner 
of  tin'  work  done  each  day,  antl  it  is 
placed  on  file.  At  the  close  of  each 
(juarter  they  are  recjuired  to  send  in  an- 
(tther  rejtort  of  the  number  of  cases  that 
have  l)een  tried  in  tin;  current  (piarter. 
The  moiety  system  was  in  vogue  in 
Maine  several  years  as«>,  und  that  was 
ail  the  remuneration  the  warden  had, 
but  we  founil  that  had  a  bad  t^flect.  for 
the  reason  that  it  jrave  rise  to  a  crv  of 
bloo<l  money  liy  the  jtoachers,  and  they 
imposetl  on  the  pnl)lie  so,  it  fell  into 
disrepute,  and  at  the  last  Leirislature 
the  moiety  system  was  done  away  with, 
and  the  salary  was  put  at  two  dollars  a 
day  and  exjn'nses. 

The  C'hairman  :   Is  that  paid  tlirouij;h 
the  State  Treasury? 

Dr.  (lould:  Tiiat  is  paid  throu^ih  the 
State  Treasurer,  and  the  fines  that  ac- 
crue from  convictions  are  paid  to  the 
County  Treasurer,  an<l  by  the  County 
Treasurer  to  the  State  Treasurer,  and 
there  it  is  cre(lited  to  th(^  proper  de- 
partment under  Mhich  it  occurs.  We 
hav  ■  two  commissioners,  one  of  lish  and 
one  of  y;anu',  and  they  are  kept  separate. 
The  doin;;  away  with  the  n\oiety  system 
on  account  of  the  cry  of  blood  money 
has,  I  think,  raised  the  standard  of  our 
work,  so  much  so  that  durinjr  the  past 
two  years  we  have  had  a  jireaf  improve- 


ment in  the  sentiment  towards  the  i)ro- 
tection  of  game  and  fish.  Of  course  we 
have  a  great  many  wardens  that  are  en- 
tirely useless. 

We  have  about  200  wardens  in  the 
State  of  Maine,  and  all  of  them  are 
under  the  control  of  the  commissioners. 
The  term  of  office  of  the  warden  is  three 
years,  unless  removeil  by  the  Governor. 
There  is  also  one  section  that  constitutes 
every  sherifi'or  police  olHtier  or  constable 
a  warchui  with  full  powers  in  their  par- 
ticular town  or  couniy,  and  they  receive 
the  same  fees  as  the  regular  wardens. 
As  a  whole  we  have  some  very  efiicient 
wardens,  but  it  is  a  slack  system,  T  thin  k, 
in  that  direction,  and  we  i)ropose  to 
remedy  it  at  the  next  legislature. 

Mr.  Osborn;  I  would  like  to  ask  the 
New  York  Commissioner  if  their  district 
wardens  are  re()uired  to  <levote  their  en- 
tire time  to  the  duties  of  their  oHice? 

Mr.  Bowman:  Yes,  sir,  we  require 
them  to  devote  their  entire  time  to 
their  duti«'s. 

("hairman  Whitaker:  I  am  sure  the 
Conference  would  like  to  hear  from  the 
Ohio  repr(!sentativ,',  Mr.  Osborn,  in  ref- 
erence to  the  desirability  of  a  uniform 
system  of  enforcement  of  laws. 

Mr.  r»sborn:  Ohio  has  nothing  to 
boast  of  in  the  way  of  a  warden  system 
at  all.  We  have  a  [>ai<l  state  warden  ; 
we  have  county  wardens  appointed  usu- 
ally ujxui  his  recomnu'ndation.  The 
state  warden  receives  ?1,L'()(/  per  annum 
and  all  traveling  expenses.  The  rail- 
roads are  not  as  liberal  with  us  as  they 
are  in  the  State  of  New  York;  we  have 
to  pay  full  fare. 

We  have  two  points  in  our  laws  that  I 
think  are  very  desirable.  We  have  the 
choice  of  justices  in  the  county  in  which 
the  action  is  brought.  The  ofticer  mak- 
ing the  arrest  can  carry  his  arresteil 
])ersr)n  before  any  magistrate  in  the 
county,  and  if  he  is  careful,  he  knows 
where  he  is  apt  to  have  justice  done,  the 
best  show  for  his  side,  and  our  law  gives 
to  the  just'"es  final  jurisdiction.  You 
cannot  go  beyond  the  justice  court  ex- 
cejit  on  error.  That  saves  us  largely  in 
the  t'xpense  of  litigation,  and  the  ricii 


I 


i<;o  : 


have 


violators  are  una])le  to  iiiako  ns»^  of  tlu'ir 
money  in  carryinji  tlie  rat^es  out  of  the 
reach  of  the  funds  in  the  hands  of  tlie 
commission. 

I  a<<ree  with  all  the  rest  of  yon  as 
to  the  answers  to  these  (luestions.  We 
liave  had  two  systems.  We  had  one 
warden  appointed  by  the  (iovernor,  and 
the  warden  was  of  no  value  whatever. 
As  New  York  has  done  so  we  should, 
as  to  the  number  of  deputy  wardens. 
1  think  our  plan  is  a  very  lame  one 
of  jiuttinfi  a  deputy  in  each  county 
The  commission  in  our  state  has  trans- 
jiressed  the  law  some  in  consolidatinf; 
different  counties  in  one  district.  When 
we  found  a  good  warden  we  put  several 
countie.'.  adjoiniiifr  hiim  under  his  care. 
We  haven't  had  the  matter  called  in 
question,  but  it  lis  not  in  accordance 
with  the  law.  The  compensation  in 
New  York  is  very  cheap.  It  is  getting 
it  done  much  cheaper  than  we  are  get- 
ting the  same  work  done.  I  tiiink  their 
system,  as  far  as  it  has  V>een  set  forth 
here  this  morning,  the  best  we  have  in 
the  states.  I  would  be  very  glad  to 
liave  Mr.  Wilmot  enlighten  us  in  regard 
to  the  warden  system  in  the  Dominion. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  In  regard  to  the  protec- 
tion of  fish  in  Canada  it  is  as  follows: 
The  Dominion  Government  ai)pointed 
for  each  of  the  |)rovinces  an  inspector 
of  fisheries  at  a  liberal  salary,  whose 
duty  it  is  to  see  that  the  laws  in  connec- 
tion with  the  fisheries  in  that  province 
is  carried  out.  Tln-y  also  ai)point  nu- 
merous overseers  or  wardens  in  ilitlcr- 
ent  localities,  all  under  the  supervision 
of  this  inspector.  Any  violations  of  the 
law  are  snppos.'d  to  l)e  noticeil  by  these 
overseers  or  wardens.  They  are  al'owed 
a  small  comjiensation  per  annum,  some 
larger,  some  smaller,  in  accordance  with 
the  particular  locality  and  in  accord- 
ance witii  th(>ir  duties.  Over  and  above 
that  they  are  entitled  to  receive  travel- 
ing expenses  to  and  from  the  places 
where  they  are  re<iuired  to  go  to  see 
into  thesi'  violations  'I'hese  fisheries 
wardens  are  appointed  during  pleasure. 
The  tisherics  inspector  also  is  appointed 
during   pleasure.      At    the   end   of   the 


year  the  fisheries  warden  make  a  report 
to  the  inspector  of  fisheries  for  the  prov- 
ince. That  inspector  in  tarn  sends  in 
these  reports,  together  with  his  own,  to 
the  Dominion  (Jovornment.  That  re- 
port is  generally  published.  Of  course 
ibis  is  a  system  wiii<'h,  to  a  certain 
extent,  is  acting  pretty  well,  but  the 
great  difficulty  lies  in  the  small  salaries 
that  are  jtaid  to  these  wardens  for  their 
duties.  The  consequence  has  been  in 
many  cases  that  they  ])refer  to  accord 
with  the  views  of  the  ])oaclier  than  to 
carry  out  the  re<iuirements  of  the  law. 
The  locations  in  which  the  fisheries  are 
carried  on  are  lia])le  to  change  political- 
ly every  ♦ww  ye  irs. 

We  fina  fliat  in  the  extensive  areas 
in  which  the  overseers  have  their  juris- 
diction they  cannot  do  their  work 
properly,  and  I  think  it  is  in  contempla- 
tion to  divide  them  in  districts  or  sec- 
tions, and  appoint  one  efficient  man, 
paying  him  handsomely,  he  remaining 
there  at  pleasure,  giving  him  jurisdic- 
tion of  that  whole  section,  and  having 
ttie  authority  to  call  to  his  aid  anybody 
to  assist  iiim  in  carrying  out  the  law. 
Hut  it  is  necessary  to  have  one  first-cla.ss 
eflicient  man  at  the  head  of  such  an  ar- 
rangement, thai  he  may  ctmsider  that 
his  living,  his  occuj)ati(tn,  and  he  must 
attend  to  it,  and  can  call  u])on  others  to 
assist  him  at  any  time.  That  I  th  nk 
wouhl  be  a  good  system,  perhaps  better 
than  any  other  that  I  have  lieanl  yet. 
Hut  that,  however,  is  an  idea  of  mine, 
an<l  it  is  framed  upon  an  experience  of 
some  forty  or  fifty  years  in  connection 
with  the  tisheries  The  only  way  to 
make  a  man  eflicient  is  to  give  him  a 
handsome  salary,  and  say,  there  are 
your  duties  and  you  are  responsible  for 
the  work.  And  if  a  man  feels  it  is  his 
living,  and  th:it  if  he  don't  carry  out  his 
duties  etiiciently  he  wiM  lose  the  ofHce. 
I  think  lie  would  be  more  careful  in 
carrying  then-,  out.  The  plan  followed 
by  the  State  of  New  York  is  very  good, 
but  it  is  sultject  to  so  many  changes  that 
I  sliould  doubt  its  etli<'acy.  Hut  your 
Iaw3  are  so  diflerent  from  ours  that  })er- 
haps  you  could  not  carry  out  the  system 


/ 


14 


tliat  1  havH  bi'cii  attemptinji  to  ilescrihe 
to  you. 

Mr.  Bowiiuvu  :  I  would  way  tliat  so  far 
as  tlic  State  of  New  York  i.s  concerned 
it  has  never  l)een  considered  a  poltical 
office  or  appointment,  and  politics  have 
so  far  enteri'd  very  little  into  the  work- 
ings of  the  Commission.  The  commis- 
sioners serve  without  salary,  and  it  is 
not  a  position  that  is  particularly  sought 
after  by  politicians,  and  consecpiently, 
there  has  been  very  little  politics 
thoujiht  of  by  them.  Whenever  a  man 
is  appointed  by  us,  if  we  find  him  etfi- 
cient  we  leave  him  there  as  hnifx  as  lie  is 
ethcient.  I  know  a  protector  in  my  own 
district  that  has  been  on<  for  fifteen  years. 
No  on(>  has  thought  of  changing  him. 
As  soon  as  we  Hnd  one  that  is  inellicient 
we  remove  him  and  a])point  anotiier  in 
his  place.  Th«'y  arc  removed  at  t\\v. 
l)leasure  of  the  Commission.  If  we  find 
a  man  is  not  looking  after  his  duties  we 
have  no  hesitation  in  removing  iiim, 
and  j)utting  another  man  in  his  place. 
That  has  l)een  our  usual  custom,  an<l  I 
think  will  continue  to  be  in  the  New- 
York  Commission  as  long  as  it  renuiins 
satisfactory. 

fast  winter  there  was  an  eli'ort  made 
during  the  session  of  the  Legishiture  to 
give  the  commissioners  a  salary,  but  tiie 
commissioners  opposed  it.  As  long  as 
we  were  there  we  didn't  want  any  salary 
for  the  simple  reason  that  the  moment 
you  attach  a  salary  to  it,  it  becomes  a 
[)olitical  office,  and  it  would  change  with 
every  change  of  administration  and  it/ 
would  entirely  destroy  the  efficiency  oi 
the  Commission. 

One   word    in  relation  to  the  moiety 
system.     We  have  the  moiety  system  in 
our  state,  and  we  think  it  works  admir- 
ably.     There     has     been    a    prejudice 
against   it,  it  is  true.     The   business  of 
the  Chief  (ianie  Protector  is  not  simply 
to  collect  fines,  simj)ly  to  sue  a  man  and 
put  the  money  in  his  pocket,  it  is  more 
to   enforce   the   law,   and  give   men   t(» 
understand  they  must  obey.     When  a 
f  man   has  innocently    transgressed    the 
\  law  he  is  frequently  settleil  with  for  the 
^simple  costs  of  prosecution  that  have 


already  been  made.  Jiat  where  we  find 
a  persistent  i)oacher,  a  man  who  is  de- 
termined to  ))()ach  at  all  hazards,  that 
man  we  follow,  if  we  have  to  follow  him 
to  the  I'nited  ."^tates  Supreme  Court. 
We  do  not  stop  anywhere.  We  had  a 
few  such  cases  at  tlu'  lower  end  of  I^ake 
Ontario.  Nets  were  seized,  and  he  re- 
jdevined  them,  and  brought  action 
against  .Mr.  .Sherman,  wlien  he  was  com- 
missioner, and  that  was  carried  to  the 
Court  of  Appeals  and  was  finally  decid- 
ed in  our  favor.  Those  are  are  the  men 
we  look  after  more  than  any  others. 
Some  men  may  do  something  that  is 
technicially  a  violation  only,  and  those 
violations  we  instriu!t  the  i)rotectors  to 
pay  no  attention  t<j.  We  are  looking 
toward  creating  a  jiublic  opinion  in 
favor  of  the  law  rather  than  to  get  fines. 
We  an;  not  after  fines.  Tf  we  can  cnsate 
a  public  opinion  that  will  respect  this 
law  and  keep  the  people  from  poaching, 
that  is  all  we  want. 

C'hairman  Whitaker:  We  have  with 
us  this  morning  a  member  of  the  Ontario 
Game  and  Fish  Commission.  1  believe 
something  has  been  done  in  the  line  of 
enforcement  in  connection  with  their 
work,  though  1  may  be  mistaken.  They 
have  bet'U  somewhat  active  1  know, 
witiiin  the  last  year,  in  the  passage  of 
laws,  and  I  think  in  their  eiiforcement, 
and  1  will  ask  Mr.  Wells  to  give  us  a 
little  information  as  to  the  condition  of 
things  in  Ontario  with  refereiu'e  to  these 

/matters. 

Mr.  Wells,  of  Chatham,  Out.:  (m-uIIc- 
men,  1  was  calle<l  on  very  suddenly  to 
attend  this  meeting,  and  it  is  only  from 
the  enforced  absence  of  Mr.  Stewart,  our 
Chief  (iame  WanU-ii,  and  Dr.  .McCallum, 
the  Chairman  of  the  lioard  of  ('ommis- 
sioiiers,  that  I  was  asked  at  the  last  mo- 
ment to  attend.  He  said  I  was  only  ex- 
pected to  be  a  listener,  and  1  am  not 
prepared  to  say  much.  Mr.  Stewart 
says  in  writing  me:  "You  can  tell  the 
Americans  that  onr  work,  although  l)ut 
a  few  mouths  old,  has  been  successful 
beyond  our  most  sanguine  expectations, 
and  that  we  look  forwanl  to  a  better 
condition  of  things  in  'he  future.    Please 


15 


express  our  rejirets  at  not  being  able  to 
address  the  meeting,  and  ask  that  tin- 
printed  proceeilings  be  sent  us." 

By  an  Act  of  Parliament  the  Ontario 
Government  a])pointed  a  conimii'sion  to 
inquire  into  the  workings  of  the  game 
law,  and  that  commissii)!!  went  through 
the  different  portions  of  the  ])rovince. 
The  principal  sportsmen  and  all  those 
intereste<l  were  asked  to  express  their 
views,  and  a  full  report  was  made  ujt, 
and  on  that  report  laws  were^passed  at 
the  last  session.  I  think  the  laws  as 
presented  were  altered  somewh  t,  but 
still  they  were  not  materially  altered. 
The  Hoard  of  Fish  and  (iame  Commis- 
sioners who  were  appointeil  is  compose<l 
of  five  members  who  serve  without  pay, 
and  these  five  commissioners  were  to 
recommend  five  wardens  in  the  differ- 
ent pans  of  the  province,  who  were  to 
be  paid,  and  also  to  recommend  deputy 
wardens  who  were  to  be  without  pay, 
except  lialf  of  the  fines  o])tained  from 
conviction.  Although  we  have  been 
working  liut  a  few  months  under  the 
new  order  of  things,  I  uuiy  say,  the  sys- 
tem seems  to  b»'  working  pretty  well. 
The  only  trouble  is  we  haven't  enough 
paid  wardens.  We  have  one  in  western 
Ontario  whose  jurisdiction  is  between 
here  and  Ifamilton.  We  have  another 
down  towards  Long  Point,  and  anotluu- 
in  WaK««fl6,'^'aAd  another  down  on  the 
nortJiern  shore  near  Kingst<in.  The 
game  laws  are  I  think,  as  near  perfect 
as  we  can  get  them.  Wv  lind  the  great- 
csst  benefit  from  the  non-sale  clause. 
It  fuis  a   great  effect  in  i)reventing — in 

ct,  it  does  away  with  the  business. 
Men  in  our  county  who  killed  from  one 
thousand  tt)  twelve  hundred  ipiail  each 
year,  <lid  not  take  their  guns  down  at  all 
last  year.  Of  course  there  have  beer, 
violations  of  the  law,  l)ut  it  has  been  mi 
a  snudl  way. 

I  nuvy  say  that  T  am  more  inten'sted 
in  game  than  fish.  Ontario  has  not 
l)een  ii\)U'  to  do  much  with  the  lish  laws. 
There  is  a  conflict  between  the  Domin- 
ion Government  and  the  Governin(>nt  of 
Ontario  as  to  jurisdiition  over  the 
waters,   and    I    believe   a  suit  Is   to   be 


brought,  it  may  be  already  instituted,  to 
establish  who  has  the  right,  Ontario  or 
the  Dominion  Government,  over  the 
waters.  After  that  Ontario  will  do 
something  in  the  way  of  lish  wardens, 
but  now  our  wardcius  are  sui)pose<l  to 
look  after  the  game  oidy. 

I  live  in  the  west  and  I  don't  know 
much  about  deer,  or  how  the  system  is 
working  in  the  nortli,  but  T  know  that 
in  the  west,  as  regards  (puiil  and  ducks, 
etc.,  it  seems  to  ])e  working  very  well. 
And  I  suppose  it  is  only  getting  in  the 
thin  end  of  the  wedge  as  to  this  paid 
warden  system,  as  it  is  very  difficult  to 
get  the  people  to  consent  to  have  any 
money,  appropriated  for  the  protection 
of-fi(4v.  "TTu'y  seem  to  think  it  is  a  lux- 
ury, and  those  who  receive'  the  benefit 
of  it  shouhl  j»ay  for  it,  but  ^  fancy  the 
government  will  aj)point  some  paiil  war- 
dens. The  system  of  deputy  wanlens 
without  pay  seems  to  be  a  failure.  I 
have  not  been  able  to  get  any  of  these 
ilej)uty  wardens  to  act,  although  I  have 
taken  a  great  deal  of  pains  to  do  so;  in 
fact,  I  have  had  to  act  myself  in  several 
cases.  Tlu»y  did  not  seem  to  think  it 
was  'vorth  their  while  for  the  small 
amount  of  pay  they  get,  and  didn't 
care  to  act.  As  to  ducks  there  is  a 
restriction  that  a  man  shall  not  kill 
more  than  800  ducks  in  a  year.  There 
\ii  a  little  opposition  to  that,  and  I  might 
say  there  is  a  good  deal  of  opposition  to 
the  doing  away  of  spring  duck  shooting. 
The  principal  argument  seems  to  be  that 
you  over  on  this  side  have  not  dene 
away  with  it,  and  that  we  sliould  not  do 
all  the  protecting.  We  liave  hail  it  in 
force  a  number  of  years,  and  they  say  it 
is  (juite  time  the  Americans  should  join 
us,  as  they  have  as  much  interest  in  the 
birds  as  we  have.  They  are  shot  from 
the  time  they  leave  us  until  the  time 
they  come  back,  and  if  they  are  to  be 
exterminated  we  ought  to  have  a  hand 
in  tlie  extermination.  Hut  I  don't  think 
that  spring  shooting  will  ever  be  al- 
lowed with  us  again.  There  is  a  strong 
feeling  against  opening  the  spring  sea- 
son. We  are  anxiously  looking  for  you 
on  this  side  to  join  us. 


ir 


f, 


in 


Mr.  Osborii:  We  arc  froin^  to  try  it 
thiH  winter. 

Mr.  Well.n:  And  1  hope  you  will  f-nc- 
feed.  I  fojwK)  se,wral  years  u^j.>  they 
(hdn  t  allow  Jvny,  and  I  was  very  much 
surprised.  I  di(hi't  see  how  tliey  would 
permit  such  a  thinj,',  and  i  asked  some 
friends  how  they  sue<'eeded  in  getting; 
such  an  arbitrary  law  passed,  antl  he 
told  me,  Uh,  you  don't  know  what  you 
can  do  until  you  try.  So  when  I  re- 
turned 1  commenced  at  once  working  up 
a  non-sale  law  on  ipiail.  My  friends, 
although  they  would  like  to  see  such  a 
law  passed,  laughed  at  such  an  idea. 
They  said  it  would  he  a  splendid  thing, 
but  impossible  to  pass  it.  However,  I 
kept  at  theuj,  and  I  was  surprised  to  see 
there  wasn't  much  opi>osition,  and  they 
finally  got  the  law  passed  as  to  the  non- 
sale  of  (juail.  And  we  have  added  since 
grouse,  woodcock,  snipe,  wilil  turkey, 
and  I  think  the  only  thing  you  can  sell 
now  is  duck.  We  found  greatly  in- 
creased benefit  from  the  law  in  stopjjing 
the  slaughter.  Ft  does  away  with  the 
business. 

Dr.  Sweeny :  1  would  like  to  say,  in 
tlie  way  of  putting  a  grain  or  two  of 
(lomfort  in  your  way,  that  in  our  recent 
meeting  in  Minneapolis,  in  which  the 
States  of  Minnesota,  Iowa  and  Wiscon- 
sin joined,  there  was  a  provision  consid- 
ered to  do  away  with  spring  shooting,  and 
also  a  restriction  on  the  imiK)rtation  of 
game.  The  idea  is  to  arrange  it  so  that 
if  a  gentleman  or  two  comi-s  from  an- 
other state  for  hunting  they  will  get  the 
permission  of  the  game  wanlen  to  send 
their  game  home  out  of  the  state,  and 
peo])le  who  are  shooting  for  the  market 
will  not  have  any  privileges,  so  that  this 
wholesale  killing  will  be  stopped.  I>ast 
night  coming  down  on  the  train  I  met 
two  young  men  who  had  just  returned 
from  Marinette,  Wisconsin.  It  is  now 
against  the  law  to  hunt  deer  with  dogs. 
lie  told  me  that  the  warden  was  a  very 
nice  fellow,  that  he  hail  three  hounds  of 
his  own,  and  they  had  two,  and  they 
joined  issues,  and  had  a  nice  time. 
They  shi])ped  twenty-two  deer  away 
from  there  of  their  own  killing.     We 


would  like  to  hear  from  some  of  the 
gentlemen  from  Michigan  on  this  point  ; 
how  I  he  department  for  the  protection 
of  game  works  under  the  Tisli  Oominis- 
sion. 

Mr.  I'osI  :  I  think  helore  pioceeding 
further,  the  resolution  that  is  before  the 
house,  if  the  discussion  is  at  an  end, 
shoidd  ln'  voted  on.  The  Secretary  has 
it. 

Cnainnan  Whitakei':  If  there  is  no 
liirther  iliscussion,  the  Secretary  will 
reail  the  resolution. 

Secretary  .\msden:  The  resolution  is 
as  follows : 

A','.v»/;r(/,  That  it  is  tlie  sense  of  this  conference 
that  the  necessity  exists  for  an  efficient  and 
uniform  enforcement  of  protective  laws  by  a 
paid  fish  and  ifa'iie  department,  on  the  general 
basis  of  the  New  York  laws." 

Chairman  Whitaker:  1  would  like  to 
say  a  word  on  the  main  (luestion  as  to 
the  necessity  for  a  uniform  enforcement. 
It  must  be  ai)parent  to  every  one  tluit 
if  we  liave  uniform  laws  with  reference 
to  the  i)rot«'ction  of  tish  in  Michigan 
and  in  all  other  states  that  eveiy  i)er.son 
would  stand'  in  the  diflerent  states  on 
the  same  footing.  If  in  our  territory  we 
have  a  clo.se  season  for  tish  and  they 
have  none  in  Ohio,  and  they  have  none 
in  Wisconsin,  it  is  aj)parent  where  we 
have  a  protection  of  tish,  and  the  bor- 
dering states  do  not,  we  are  put  at  a  dis- 
advantage. 1  speak  more  |)articularly 
of  fish,  because  I  am  interested  alone  in 
the  lish. 

At  the  last  session  of  the  Legislature 
I  had  drawn  up  and  presented  a  bill  for 
the  reformation  of  the  fish  and  game 
warden  law  of  this  state.  I  am  sorry 
to  say  it  never  saw  the  light  of  day.  I 
am  convinced,  however,  it  was  a  good 
bill.  The  bill  i)rovided  for  certain  re- 
forms, and  it  was  founded  on  our  ex- 
perience in  the  State  of  Michigan  with 
the  present  law.  Let  me  say,  in  pass- 
ing, that  the  t'ouble  with  all  our  states 
is,  with  tht  exception  of  New  York, 
they  liave '•.  good  law  there- that  their 
ward  n  laws  are  worthless  and  all  they 
are  accomj)lishing  is  the  enactment  of 
statutes  that  are  unenforced.  You  are 
commencing  at   the   wrong  end.     Tlie 


ti 
W 
in 
in 
tl 

Sf 


17 


ne  of  tlu> 
lii.s  point  ; 
protection 
I  ('onnnis- 

loccedinf:: 
liftor*'  the 
t  an  end, 
(itary  has 

t'lc  is  no 
'tary    will 

ointion  is 

iconferi-'iice 

fficieiit  and 

laws   by  a 

the  general 

111  like  to 

lion  an  to 

Drc'oment. 

one  tJiat 

reference' 

Michigan 

ly  person 

states  on 

ritory  we 

ind   they 

ave  none 

here  we 

the  hor- 

at  a  dis- 

"ticularly 

alone  in 

gislature 
a  bill  for 
nd  game 
in   sorry 

day.  I 
H  a  good 
rtain  re- 

our  ex- 
an  with 

in  pass- 
ir  states 
V    York, 

it  their 
ail  they 
nient  of 
You  are 
The 


•< 


troul)le  has  l)een  that  our  Chief  Game 
Warden  has  drawn  his  salary,  and  has 
in  some  instances  enforced  the  law  in  the 
inland  waters.  I  say  nothing  against 
the  desire  of  the  warden  to  enforce, 
so  far  as  he  could  indivi<lually,  the 
laws,  but  it  is  absolutely  impossible 
for  one  man  in  Michigan  to  enforce  the 
law  over  the  entire  state.  The  result 
has  been  that  in  a  few  spasmodic  cases 
the  law  has  been  enforced,  but  the  great 
body  of  the  state  at  large  has  been  un- 
protected. FoT*  example,  the  County  of 
Wayne  has  j)aid  three  wardens  §1,200  a 
year  each  Avhile  the  other  counties  in 
the  state  have  paid  nothing.  The  result 
has  l)een  that  we  have  had  little  or  no 
enfor(;ement  of  the  laws. 

The  bill  I  spoke  of  contemplated  that 
then^  should  be  a  principal  lish  and 
game  warden  appointed  with  a  salary  to 
])e  paid  by  the  state.  That  he  should 
luive  the  power  under  certain  restric- 
tions, and  with  certain  endorsements  as 
to  their  titness,  from  the  proper  branch 
of  the  government,  to  appoint  not  more 
than  five  nor  less  than  three  deputy 
wardens.  It  provided  that  the  deputy 
wardens  should  be  paid  foOO  a  year  and 
their  exjjcnses.  Their  salary  should  be 
paid  monthl}',  and  their  expenses  at 
such  stated  times  as  thought  l)est,  their 
Vouchers  for  expenses  to  be  endorsed  by 
the  (Jame  Warden  in  Chief.  The  power 
was  given  also  to  change  a  warden  from 
his  own  district  into  another  district  to 
])erform  the  duties  of  his  office,  if  neces- 
sary, thereby  removing  him  from  the 
local  influences  that  surround  the  Avar- 
den.  A  man  doesn't  like  to  comi)lain 
of  his  neighbor.  It  removed  him  from 
l)olitical  and  personal  prejudice  and  in- 
Hut'nce.  Now,  I  believe  that  a  system 
worked  out  on  those  lines  would  be  a 
success,  and  would  give  a  reasonable 
enfoniement  of  the  law  all  over  the 
country.  It  is  practically  in  line  with 
the  New  York  code  of  laws  recjuiring 
the  protection  of  Hsh  and  game.  1  hope 
this  resolution  will  pass.  I  believe  this 
meeting  ought  to  adopt  the  resolution, 
and  that  we  should  decide  that  it  is  the 
sense  of  this  meeting  that  there  should 
3 


be  a  uniform  system  of  wardenships  in 
all  the  states. 

Mr.  Osl)orn :  We  have  tried  in  our 
state  to  bring  our  Legislature  to  see  the 
desirability  of  a  uniform  law,  but  we 
find  when  we  elect  a  man  to  the  Legis- 
lature from  one  of  our  back  counties, 
that  he  comes  up  to  the  Cai)itol  know- 
ing more  than  the  combined  wisdom  of 
New  York  and  all  the  rest  of  the  states, 
and  lie  wont  agree  to  anything  any 
other  state  has,  because  he  knows  bett(!r. 
I  remember  of  once  going  befoie  our 
fish  and  game  committee,  and  getting 
them  to  report  favorably  on  a  clause  in 
our  law  which  afterwards  became  apart 
of  our  law,  and  it  was  an  exact  copy  as 
it  was  then  of  the  New  York  .Sunday 
law.  We  had  a  meml)er  from  Wood 
County  who  didn't  know  a  wagon  from 
a  pound  net,  but  he  knew  more  about  fish 
and  game  than  all  the  New  York  Legis- 
lature. 1  don't  know  whether  it  would 
strengthen  our  resolution  to  put  the 
word  "  uniform  "  in  it  or  not;  whether 
it  would  not  be  better  to  aim  at  the 
best,  and  that  it  is  the  sense  of  this 
meeting  that  we  endeavor  to  reach  the 
best  system  of  wardency,  making  the 
New  York  law  the  model.  It  won't  do 
our  legislators  any  good  to  go  beforf 
them  with  this  resolution  or  this  recom- 
mendation. They  know  a  little  better 
than  any  other  Legislature,  and  they 
think  they  can  improve  on  anything 
that  anybody  else  has  done.  That  is 
the  condition  of  our  Legislature  usually. 

Chairman  Whitaker:  1  would  like  to 
ask  if  you  have  a  permanent  committee 
on  game  and  fish,  a  standing  committee  ? 

Mr.  Osborn  :  Yes,  sir;  it  is  permanent. 
Each  body  appoints  its  own  committees. 
It  is  a  standing  committee. 

Mr.  Post:  1  would  rather  not  remove 
the  word  "uniform."  I  think  that  is 
the  best  word  in  the  resolution.  We 
will  come  as  near  the  best  system  as  we 
can.  We  are  not  passing  laws  her'  now, 
we  are  only  suggesting  what  our  judg- 
ment is.  I  don't  suppose  my  friend, 
Mr.  Osborn,  deprecates  the  idea  of  uni- 
form laws,  if  we  can  reach  them.  It  is 
only  expressing  the  sense  of  the  confer- 


(, 


m- 


II 


18 


ence,  and  I  have  no  doubt  myself,  that 
uniform  laws  would  be  much  more  bene- 
ficial than  lawH  of  diilVrent  kinds  in  a<l- 
joininj?  states,  even  if  they  were  not 
quite  as  efficient.  I  think  a  uniform  law 
coverinj^  the  whole  border  of  the  lakes 
would  be  better,  even  if  it  were  not  as 
strinj^ent,  than  diflerent  laws  for  dili'er- 
ent  states.  I  will  call  or  a  vote  on  the 
resolution. 

Secretary  Amsden :  Before  you  vote 
on  that  matter  I  simply  want  to  make 
one  or  two  remarks.  I  represent  an- 
other element  here— I  wish  there  were 
more  representing  it  than  myself — but 
I  believe  that  element  is  growing  in  this 
country  very  fast.  From  all  my  read- 
ing and  correspondence  1  can  find  that 
people  outside  of  the  fish  and  game  com- 
mi.ssions,  outside  of  the  officials  in  tiiis 
country,  are  beginning  to  wake  up  to 
the  importance  of  the  pnjfection  of  fish 
and  game.  The  principal  ones  who  are 
alive  to  it  are  the  real,  honest,  true 
sportsmen,  the  followers  of  dear  old 
Isaac  Walton. 

Now,  the  gentlemen  in  all  the  remarks 
made  this  morning  speak  of  the  enact- 
ment of  gooil  laws,  they  spe-ik  of  the 
one  object  of  getting  them  ])assed  by 
the  different  Legislatures,  through  po- 
litical iuHiiences  brought  to  bear  upon 
the  men  who  know  more  than  they  do 
about  it.  Now,  gentlemen,  one  direc- 
tion in  which  our  efforts  should  be  made 
is  in  the  direction  of  cultivating  a  better 
sentiment,  a  more  united  sentiment 
amongst  the  public  generally,  looking 
toward  these  laws,  and  I  think  that  can 
be  accomplished  by  increasing  and  or- 
ganizing clubs  throughout  the  ditl'en'ut 
states,  and  that  is  being  done.  jNI'-issa- 
chusetts  has  a  very  live  state  organiza- 
tion, and  a  large  one.  They  have  meet- 
ings three  or  four  times  during  the 
year,  and  they  are  very  enthusiastic, 
and  they  are  having  an  effect.  Illinois 
has  a  state  organization,  and  Southern 
Michigan  has  an  organization.  New 
York  State  has  just  effected  an  organi- 
zation that  is  very  enthusiastic.  We 
have  our  annual  meeting  next  January. 
It  is  working  great  results.    1  think  if 


meetings  like  this  would  attend  more  to 
the  cultivating  of  j)roper  sentiment,  you 
woidd  have  less  trouble  in  getting  these 
laws  passed.  1  merely  speak  of  it  in 
that  way  to  draw  out  the  idea  that  pre- 
vails in  my  own  mind,  that  to  get  good 
laws  and  an  enforcement  of  them  you 
must  have  the  backing  of  i)ublic  senti- 
ment. AVithout  it  you  can  do  nothing. 
I  believe  that  this  thing  is  growing,  and 
is  destined  to  be  strong  all  througli  this 
country. 

I  would  like  to  hear  from  our  Cana- 
dian friends.  There  are  several  here 
that  have  said  notliing.  You  must  re- 
member that  although  we  have  called 
this  an  international  conference,  we  do 
not  mean  that  in  a  diplomatic  sense. 
It  is  an  American  flexibility  of  a  term 
rather  than  an  exact  expression  and  we 
can  learn  a  great  deal  from  what  you 
have  to  say.  I  hope  we  shall  be  able  to 
take  home  some  new  ideas  with  us,  and 
we  would  be  very  glad  to  hear  some- 
thing further  on  this  subject  before  f 
put  the  resolution. 

Mr.  Wilino't :  I  think  when  the  fish- 
eries (juestions  come  U})  we  shall  enter 
into  the  discussion  more  fully.  I  have 
a  friend  here  who  is  president  of  a  very 
important  fisliing  and  shooting  club  on 
Lake  Erie.  I'erhai)s  he  might  be  able 
to  give  us  some  ideas  on  the  matter. 
Mr.  Harris,  of  Toronto. 

Mr.  Harris :  I  am  president  of  a  sport- 
ing club,  it  is  true,  but  in  addressing 
these  gentlemen  1  hardly  know  where 
to  begin  on  a  (juestion  of  this  kind. 
Tlie  clufj  is  pretty  well  known  through- 
out the  country  as  the  Long  Point 
Shooting  Cliil)  of  Lake  l<h'ie.  It  is  a  club 
very  similar  to  tliose  of  the  St.  Clair 
Flats,  with  the  exception  that  we  own 
our  property,  which  is  a  great  resort  for 
the  wild  duck,  a  bird  of  passage.  Now, 
as  regards  that  bird  I  have  a  word  to 
say.  The  duck  will  soon  become  extinct 
unless  spring  shooting  is  stopped  in  the 
United  States.  AVe  no  doubt  have  the 
breeding  ground  for  that  bird.  They 
breed  in  the  nf>rth  ;  tlu^y  breed  in  our 
territory.  We  prevent  the  Indians 
from  taking  the  eggs,  and  we  have  very 


1 


10 


nd  more  to 
iiiioiit,  yoii 
ttiii^'  tlit'so 
ik  of   it  in 
I  (liat  jirt!- 
o  got  good 
them  yon 
I»lic  seiiti- 
o  iiotliinjr. 
)\viiifr,  and 
rough  this 

our  Ciina- 
eral   here 

must  re- 
ive called 
ce,  we  do 
tic  sensor 
)f  <i  term 
n  and  we 
vhat  you 
)e  al)le  to 
h  us,  and 
;ar  some- 

hefore  I 

the  tish- 

al)  enter 

I  have 

>f  a  very 

club  on     ' 

be  able 

matter.  " 

a  sport- 
Iressing 
■  where 
H  kind, 
irougli- 
:  Point 
s  a  club 
t.  Clair 
ve  own 
sort  for 

Now, 

ord  to 

sxtinct 

in  the 

ve  the 

They 
in  our 
iidiana 
e  very 


strict  regulations  with  reference  to  their 
destruction.  Those  regulatif)ns  have 
V)een  still  more  strict  lately,  l)ut  they  go 
south  to  you,  and  you  shoot  them  in  the 
Hjjring,  and  we  do  nothing.  I  notices 
the  Redhead  is  pretty  nearly  gone,  the 
CanvaH-l)ack  is  gone,  the  Bald-pate  is 
ge  ting  scarce,  the  I51ue-winged  Teal  are 
getting  scarce,  l)ut  we  have  the  Pin-tail 
in  great  numbers.  That  is  a  duck  that 
the  Bostonians  and  the  New  Yorkers 
wont  eat,  and  I  believe  it  has  been 
found  usehtss  up  to  datv  to  influence 
cf)ngressional  legislation  or  anything  of 
thatsort  iu  regard  to  that  bird.  It  is  not 
a  gO'  \  bird.  So  we  are  having  left  the 
worsi  bird.  I  think  unless  sometliing 
is  done  in  this  country  to  protect  these 
birds  of  passage  in  the  various  border- 
ing states,  unless  something  is  done  to 
prevent  their  destruction,  we  will  see 
the  end  of  the  wild  duck  in  five  or  six 
years.  Now,  that  is  enough  for  the 
duck.  Then  we  have  (puiil,  partridge, 
snipe,  and  these  other  birds  that  ^Ir. 
Wells  SI  oke  about.  1  have  no  doubt 
l)ut  that  all  these  biids  may  be  pre- 
served by  proper  regulations,  but  they 
cannot  be  protected  by  any  amount  of 
regulations  that  we  nuike,  unless  the 
owner  of  the  soil,  unless  the  far- 
mer, unless  th(!  man  who  owns  the 
property  in  the  various  states  and  Can- 
ada and  his  family  who  live  upon  that 
]»roperty  are  educated  to  look  upon  that 
game  as  their  own  while  it  is  on  their 
property.  The  law  should  be  made 
strict  enough  to  enable  the  owner  of  the 
soil  to  keep  trespassers  off.  Without 
that,  I  have  no  faith  in  any  regulation 
to  prevent  the  extinction  of  the  game. 

Jn  Ontario,  at  the  last  session  of 
Parliament,  the  Provincial  Secretary 
brought  in  a  bill,  which,  I  think,  was 
the  best  all-round  bill  that  has  been 
prepared  since  game-protection  laws 
commenced  to  be  made.  That  bill  en- 
abled the  owners  of  the  soil  to  post 
their  jiroperty  and  to  i)ost  unenclose<l 
lands.  The  clause  enabling  the  unen- 
closed lands  to  be  i»osted  was  defeated 
on  the  third  reading  of  the  bill,  which 
rendered  the  act  in  that  respect  practi- 


cally useless,  because  the  farmers  fence 
their  liehls  to  wh'ch  the  game  comes 
occasionally,  and  if  there  is  a  consider- 
able tract  of  land  adjoining,  where  there 
is  no  protection,  that  is  the  place  where 
the  birds  go,  and  they  have  been  left  in 
Ontario  absolutely  at  the  mercy  of  any 
|)erson,  and  there  is  no  way  of  keei)ing 
them  ofl".     The  bill  was  si)oiled  thus. 

Now  the  only  Other  point  which  I 
would  like  to  touch  upon  in  reference 
to  game-i)reservation  is  one  which  takes 
some  time  for  an  American,  or  a  Cana- 
dian either,  to  understand.  You  have 
jln  immense  rural  area  in  America,  and 
in  Canatla  we  have  plenty  of  land.  It 
was  only  a  few  years  ago  that  the  whole 
country  abounded  in  game.  Ii  was 
everywhere.  The  (puiil  was  not  here. 
We  did  not  know  anything  a))out  the 
(puiil  in  Ontario  when  the  country  was 
discovered,  but  as  soon  as  the  farmers 
cleared  up  their  lands  and  cultivated 
their  fields,  down  came  that  bird  to 
make  his  projjorty  a  little  more  cheerful 
and  eat  up  his  insects,  and  after  the 
country  had  been  settled  for  thirty  or 
forty  years,  it  was  overrun  with  quail  in 
all  diretttions,  as  far  down  as  Toronto 
and  beyond  that.  All  our  people  did 
was  to  net  them  and  destroy  them  at 
every  season  of  the  year.  I  myself  have 
shot  them  when  they  were  whistling 
on  the  nest,  when  I  was  a  boy,  and 
didn't  think  I  was  doing  any  harm. 
Then  the  railroads  oi)ened,  and  the 
t)uail  were  exterminated,  and  now  we 
are  trying  to  get  them  )>ack. 

The  same  remarks  apply  to  partridges 
and  many  other  binls.  But  notwith- 
standing sparse  poi)ulation,  compared 
with  older  countries,  and  with  the  im- 
mense extent  of  country  we  have,  we 
are  now  trying  to  get  the  game  back. 

If  you  go  to  the  other  side  of  the  At- 
lantic, to  England,  with  their  immense 
population,  you  will  find  that  the  coun- 
try is  overcrowded  with  these  birds. 
You  wonder  that  there  is  any  room  to 
raise  a  bird,  but  they  not  only  produce 
birds  for  the  whole  of  the  people  of 
Great  Britain,  l)ut  they  export  their 
game  to  Australia  and  to  America,   The 


// 


20 


best  dinners  you  get  in  New  York  are 
English  pheasant  and  Kn^^iisli  grouse, 
and  to-day,  in  Toronto,  if  you  want  a 
game  flinner,  you  will  find  that  the 
(juail,  partridge  and  pheasants  are  im- 
ported from  Great  Britain. 

Now  the  only  reason  for  this  is  that  in 
England  the  game  laws  are  enforced, 
and  they  are  probably  the  most  simi)le 
and  the  beat  that  were  ever  framed  by 
any  country.  As  a  rule,  the  people 
here  regard  the  game  laws  (jf  England 
as  some  private  privilege  — some  arrange- 
ment for  hunting  people  or  transporting 
them  to  .\ustralia.  But  all  the  obnojw- 
ous  gauK!  laws  in  England  were  repealed 
in  \S'.\(i,  and  the  protection  of  game  in 
England  is  rechiced  simply  to  this:  If  a 
man  comes  ui)on  your  propei'ty  the  law 
compels  him  to  give  his  name  and  ad- 
dress. If  he  does  not  give  it  he  can  be 
fined  live  pounds,  or  $25.  It  does  not 
remain  with  the  magistrate  to  say  how 
much  damage  he  lias  done,  whether  it 
be  fifty  cents,  or  even  less;  the  fine  is 
five  pounds  for  refusing  to  give  his 
name,  if  he  is  asked  to  give  his  name 
and  declines  to  do  so.  If  a  man  goes 
upon  your  property  and  yon  order  iiiin 
ofl"  and  he  won't  go  ofl',  you  can  line 
him,  and  there  is  an  increased  fine  for 
the  second  offense.  You  may  say  that 
upon  that  law  all  the  game  in  England 
is  raised.  That  is  the  whole  thing. 
There  is  a  severer  law  for  night  poach- 
ing, but  that  is  no  longer  done  The 
poacher  in  England  is  not  like  our  pot- 
hunter. T  he  English  poacher  is  a  man 
that  goes  with  nets  and  snares  by  night, 
and  in  order  to  avoid  the  law  for  carry- 
ing arms  by  night,  he  carries  a  bag  of 
stones.  That  is  the  way  he  defends 
himself.  He  does  not  go  about  with  a 
gun.  The  man  who  destroys  our  prop- 
erty is  usually  an  intelligent,  smart  fel- 
low, and  according  to  the  custom  of  his 
country,  as  long  as  he  has  a  gun  in  his 
hand,  he  thinks  he  has  a  right  to  go 
anywhere,  and  is  very  seldom  fined. 
It  is  a  very  nice  arrangement  as  long  as 
there  is  game,  but  if  that  plan  is  carried 
on  for  a  considerable  time,  we  won't 
have  a  bird  in  the  country.     Until  you 


give  the  owners  of  the  soil  an  easy  and 
prompt  remedy,  you  may  as  well  look 
upor.  every  bird  in  this  country  as 
doomed. 

Chairman  Whitaker:  The  ipiestion 
seems  to  have  been  pretty  well  dis- 
(!Ussed,  and  the  hour  is  getting  some- 
what late,  but  before  the  vote  is  taken, 
I  want  to  say  to  you  that  the  Michigan 
Fish  Commission  extend  to  you  an  in- 
vitation to  visit  the  hatchery  on  the 
corner  of  Cham])lain  and  Joseph  Cam- 
pau  avenue,  leaving  here  at  '_'  o'clock, 
and  we  would  like  to  have  you  all  go. 

The  question  was  then  i)ut  upon  the 
resolution  and  it  was  adoi>ted. 

On  motion,  the  conference  took  a  re- 
(!ess  until  4  o'clock  the  same  day. 

At  2  o'clock  the  conference  visited  the 
whitetish  hatchery  and  investigated  its 
workings. 

TtiESD.w,  Dec.  20,  1892,  4  i-.  m. 

The  Chairnum :  The  conference  will 
come  to  order.  Since  the  conference 
took  a  recess  the  Chief  Fish  and  Game 
Warden  of  this  state  has  arrived.  He 
exjiected  to  be  here  this  morning  an<l  I 
want  to  hear  from  him  on  this  question 
that  we  have  discussed.  For  the  pur- 
pose of  bringing  the  matter  up  again  so 
that  he  may  know  what  it  is,  I  will  ask 
the  Secretary  to  read  the  resolution  that 
was  unanimously  adopted  this  morning, 
and  then  we  will  hear  from  the  Game 
Warden. 

The  Secretary:: 

Resolved,  Tha^^is  the  sense  of  ttiis  conference 
that  the  necessity  exists  foran  efficient  and  uni- 
form enforcement  of  protective  laws  by  the  fish 
and  game  department  on  the  general  basis  of 
the  New  York  law. 

The  President:  I  will  say  that  the 
sub-heads  discfissed  were : 

1.  Should  the  Department  be  under 
the  Fish  Commission. 

2.  Number  of  deputy  wardens. 

3.  Compensation  of  Ciiief  Warden  and 
deputies. 

4.  Terms  of  office. 

Now,  gentlemen,  I  know  that  our 
Michigan  Fish  and  Game  Warden,  Mr. 
Hampton,  has  sought  to  the  best  ot  his 


as 


it    the 
inder 

1  and 


our 
Mr. 
his 


21 


ability  to  enforce  the  laws  of  thin  state. 
Ill'  has  Ix'cn  crippled  in  a  way  that  I 
HU^igcsted  this  niorninj,',  by  a  depart- 
ment that  is  wrongly  organized.  I 
know  yon  would  all  like  to  hear  from 
.Mr.  Hampton  his  opinion  upon  this 
matter  and  upon  what  should  be  done 
for  a  proper  enforcement  of  the  laws,  I 
will  therefore  ask  him  to  address  the 
conference. 

Mr.  Hampton:  Mr.  Chairman  and 
gentlemen — In  the  first  place  I  want  to 
exjiress  a  regret  that  I  was  not  present 
this  morning,  in  view  of  the  arrange- 
ment of  the  program.  The  chairman, 
however,  was  mistaken  in  saying  that  I 
exi)ecte(l  to  be  liere  this  morning;  I 
wrote  him  that  it  would  be  impossible 
for  UK!  to  be  present  until  the  afternoon. 
I  regret  that  I  was  not  present — not  b(!- 
cause  1  think  I  could  have  given  the 
conference  any  ideas,  but  becaust;  I 
might  have  profited  by  some  of  the  sug- 
gestions made.  Inasmuch  as  the  nuit- 
ter  has  not  been  passed  upon,  it  wonld 
be  hardly  in  gooil  taste  for  me  to  giv(^ 
any  suggestions,  so  1  will  only  say  that 
I  api)rove  the  spirit  of  the  resolution. 
However,  I  do  not  think  that  the  New 
York  system,  if  I  am  thoroughly  in- 
fornKMl  upon  that,  is  just  wliat  it  should 
be.  I  believe,  and  in  fact  all  must  who 
know  anything  about  the  enforcement 
of  game  and  fish  laws,  that  men  must 
l)e  paid  for  their  work  or  they  will  not 
do  it.  When  1  tell  you  that  I  have 
something  like  '  o  hundred  deputies  in 
this  state,  and  that  notwithstanding 
that  fact,  more  than  twenty-five  per 
cent  of  the  convictions  that  we  have 
had  in  this  state  (and  we  have  had  more 
than  there  have  been  in  New  York  State) 
have  been  made  upon  my  own  com- 
plaint ,  that  I  have  prosecuted  perhaps 
twenty  per  cent  of  them  you  will  undi-r- 
stand  how,  as  the  chairman  said,  that 
we  are  crippled  by  having  deputies  who 
are  not  properly  compensated. 

1  believe,  however,  that  the  tn.e  sys- 
tem of  comj)ensation  is  a  compensation 
fixed  upon  the  labor  actually  performed, 
luxviug  an  officer  who  is  responsible  for 
tfie  entire  management,  wlio  has  the 


power  of  discontinuing  the  pay  so 
that,  in  other  words,  the  deputies  will 
look  to  the  man  they  have  got  to 
please,  the  superior  oflicer  who  is 
responsible,  in  order  to  get  their  com- 
pensation. I  find  thnt  under  our  pres- 
ent system,  our  deputies  in  MicluLran 
work  harder  to  "  work"  the  supervisors 
for  comi)ensation,  than  they  do  to  en- 
force the  laws.  That  is  where  the  dilli- 
culty  lies.  Pay  them  out  of  the  State 
Treasury  for  the  work  actually  jxm"- 
formed  and  the  dilMculty  will  be  solved. 

As  I  understand,  the  wardens  in  New 
York  State  are  divided  off  into  districts, 
and  each  warden  receives  a  certain  sal- 
ary. I  belit!ve  that  is  more  expensive 
and  less  etlicient  than  a  system  of  one 
head  with  deputies  working  under  the 
one  direction.  I  do  not  know  thai  it 
wonld  be  better  for  New  York,  but  I  do 
know  that  it  would  be  })etter  for  ISIichi- 
gan,  knowing  Michigan  thoroughly,  that 
that  is  the  system  we  should  have  here, 
and  I  vvoiild  rather  have  a  few  dozen 
men  ])aid  five  dollars  a  day  and  expenses 
and  working  under  my  direction,  to  go 
here  and  there  as  I  <lirect  them,  than  to 
have  "ny  other  syst(Mn  we  ever  had  in 
Micliigan.  During  the  first  year  this 
systen.  was  in  vogue  ihe  <leput\'  war- 
dens of  the  State  of  Michigan  receiv(;d 
o\or  S10,000.  I  believe  in  New  York 
State  they  ret^eived  over  SI."), ()()(). 

The  President:  I  would  like  to  ask 
Mr.  Hampton  what  lu'  thinks  of  the 
present  system.  I  understand  he  has 
partially  expressed  lumself,  but  I  desire 
to  know  what  he  thinks  of  the  present 
system  of  fish  and  game  wardens  in  the 
State  of  Michigan,  under  the  control  of 
the  Boards  of  Supervisors,  so  far  as  their 
compensation  is  concerin^d. 

Mr.  Hampton:  1  think  this,  that  if 
you  want  the  law  enforced,  it  is  an  ab- 
sunl  system.  I  know  I  have  prosecuted 
myself  some  of  the  supervisors.  The 
supervisors,  if  they  give  any  compensa- 
tion at  all,  will  give  it  for  the  men  not.  to 
rvfiirn  ihr  linr.  They  do  not  want  the 
men  to  enforce  the  law.  It  is  all  non- 
sense to  allow  the  compensation  to  be 
fixed  by  a  board  of  supervisors ;  it  is  pre- 


in 


0'> 


m 


poHtorous  .M()  fur  h.'<  the  I'lifdrcement  of 
the  hiw  is  eoncenied.  Take  the  niiitter 
i)f  the  (•(Hiipcnsiitioii  here  in  tlic  Comity 
of  Wiiyiie,  ii  comity  wlii-re  tliere  ha-: 
Iteeii  lews  noetl  of  work  tliiiii  any  otber 
comity  ill  tlic  ntatc,  and  tiicy  iiavc  paid 
until  the  hiwt  vear  a.s  liigli  an  .•?;{,()()()  a 
year  for  the  enforcement  of  a  hiw.  The 
hardest  work  of  the  wardt^ns  here  was 
in  workiiiji  tlic  hoard  of  atiditorH.  No,  I 
think  the  ('hairnian  in  riji;lit  in  the  idea 
he  Hngt;i'Hts  by  his  (luestion,  and  th»t  \k, 
the  (;onipeii8ation  niu.st  be  relieved  en- 
tirely of  all  these  local  (deinenia  which 
you  iiiust  necessarily  have  when  you 
trust  it  to  the  board  of  auditors  or  su- 
pervisors, or  in  any  other  local  hands. 
Take  it  away  from  local  hands  and  give 
a  general  intluence.  That  is  why  a  state 
warden  is  better  than  a  local  warden. 
Let  me  take  a  man  from  one  county  ami 
send  him  to  the  other  end  of  the  state 
and  he  will  do  better  work  than  a  man 
who  lives  right  there  in  the  neighbor- 
liood. 

The  President:  I  think  we  all  en- 
dorse what  has  been  said  by  the  (Janie 
Warden,  at  least  we  do  in  Michigan,  and 
I  wanted  you  should  hear  what  his  ex- 
perience was  in  connection  with  the  laws 
and  their  enforcement. 

We  will  now  proceed  to  the  second 
order  of  business.  No.  2,  and  I  thii\k, 
perhaps,  in  the  discussi  a  of  these  mat- 
ters, it  will  be  well  to  take  them  up  as 
an  entirety.    I  will  read  them  : 

1.  Should  there  be  a  close  season  for 
white  lish  ? 

2.  If  yes,  what  shall  be  the  limit? 

;5.  Shall  a  restriction  be  put  upon  the 
size  of  fish  to  be  taken,  or  had  in  posses- 
sion, or  on  the  size  of  mesh? 

4.  Penalties. 

There  are  many  other  things  which  it 
would  be  {)roj)er  to  discuss  at  this  time, 
but  the  program  itself  is  but  a  starting 
point  for  disciissson.  x'he  matter  is  now 
open  for  consideration  and  we  would  be 
glad  to  hear  from  any  member  of  the 
conference.  1  know  of  one  gentleman 
present,  the  better  part  of  whose  activity 
for  the  i)ast  twenty-five  years  has  lain 
in  the  direction  of  a  better  enforcement 


of  laws,  and  in  the  creation  of  new  laws, 
and  in  as  rigid  an  enforcement  as  could 
be  given.  1  know  that  he  is  thoroughly 
familiar  with  every  point  that  is  con- 
cerned here,  and  I  would  ask  the  lion. 
Samuel  Wiimol  to  respond. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  .Mr.  Chairman  and  Gen- 
tlemen—  You  impose  on  me  a  rather 
onerous  dnty  just  now,  but  notwith- 
standing it  gives  me  pleasure  to  rise  and 
speak.  Should  there  be  a  close  season 
for  whitelish?  1  think  if  it  should  be 
put,  "there  shall  be  a  close  season  for 
whitetish,"  it  would  be  much  better, 
and  I  think  the  probabilities  are  that 
we  woulil  pass  the  resolution  almost  at 
once  in  favor  of  it.  But  this  throws  the 
matter  oi)en  for  discussion  now  and  I 
beg  to  make  some  remarks  upon  it. 

A  close  season  for  whitelish  is  i)er- 
ha[)s  more  retpiired  than  for  any  other 
species  of  lish  on  this  American  contin- 
ent. I  think  the  whitefish  are  jire- 
emineiitly  the  best  fish  that  inhabit  the 
fresh  waters  of  Nortli  America,  and  at 
one  time  they  were  perhajis  the  niodt 
numeiTUS,  but  of  late  years  they  are  be- 
coming very  scarce;  indeed,  so  much  so 
that  we  lind  almost  evcsry  .«tate  in  the 
union  wdiose  territories  border  on  tlu; 
great  lakes,  is  endeavoring  in  some  way 
to  ))rotect  them,  and  each  is  trying  to 
out-do  the  other  in  producing  the  most 
artificially  iiroduced  fry,  thus  givingevi- 
dence  that  they  are  consiilered  a  su- 
l)erior  fish,  and  testimony  that  there  is 
something  that  calls  for  this  protection. 
Without  any  ilegree  of  egotism,  1  may 
say  that  it  has  been  a  labor  of  love  of 
mine  for  the  last  twenty-five  years  to 
aid  nature  in  its  production  of  tish  for 
the  commercial  benefit  of  the  country, 
and  as  a  luxury  for  the  table.  1  may 
say  that  I  originated  the  artificial  proji- 
agation  of  whitelish,  and  therefore  have 
taken  a  ve'y  prominent  part  all  the  way 
through  in  carrying  out  that  industry, 
and  at  the  same  time,  while  1  have  done 
that,  I  have  never  been  so  foolish  as  to 
say  that  artificial  culture  of  fish  is  going 
to  supercede  the  natural.  I  regret  very 
much  to  find  m  many  states  of  the 
union,  and  among  my  own  people  in  our 


28 


if  new  lawH, 
'lit  iiH  could 
tlioroiifihly 
liat  is  coii- 
k  tlie  Hon. 

n  and  Gen- 

0  11  ratlior 
It  notwitli- 

to  ritio  and 
lose  season 

should  be 

season  for 
ich  hetter, 
s  are  that 

almost  at 
throws  the 
now  and  I 
ion  it. 
ish   is  jier- 

any  other 

:an  eontin- 

are    ])re- 

nhahit  the 

iea,  and  at 

1  the  niodt 
ley  are  lie- 

0  much  so 
ite  in  the 
er  on  the 
<onnf  way 

trying  to 
the  most 
,M\ingevi- 
red  a  su- 
t  there  is 
rotection. 
ni,  1  may 
of  love  of 

years  to 
f  Hsh  for 

country, 
'.  1  may 
cial  prop- 
fore  have 

1  the  way 
industry, 
lavedone 
ish  as  to 

is  going 
^ret  very 
i  of  the 
lie  in  our 


own  country,  that  tiiey  iiave  tiie  idea 
that  if  they  have  hntciieries  here  and 
there,  tiiere  is  no  necessity  for  close  sea- 
sons being  carrie<l  out.  This  feeling 
l>redr)minates  morewitii  lishermen  than 
any  others.  It  is  a  fallacy  to  think  that 
the  construction  of  hati'lieries  for  the 
artidcial  breeding  of  fish  is  going  to  sup- 
ply the  want  The  lishermen,  however, 
as  I  said  before,  claim  that  if  we  build 
hatcheries,  no  close  seasons  will  be  re- 
(|nire<l.  This,  then,  brings  the  subject 
at  once  before  me. 

I  am  a  strohg  advocate  of  close  sea- 
sons for  every  (h'scription  of  fish,  not 
only  for  wdiitelish,  but  for  all  others, 
because  1  think  in  the  first  arr  aigement 
of  nature,  the  balance  was  iierfect,  and 
when  you  disturb  that  balance,  we  nec- 
essarily will  have  to  make  it  up  by  some 
means  by  which  man  is  capable  to  a  cer- 
tain exti'ut  of  bringing  about,  and  that 
is  by  protection  and  by  artificial  jnoduc- 
tion.  A  close  season  for  whitefish  is 
alxive  all  others,  I  think,  more  necessary 
than  with  any  other  fish.  They  are  an 
innocent  tish  in  tlieir  nature,  they  are 
not  voracious.  They  are  very  prolific  in 
their  nature,  and  it  was  intended,  there- 
fore, that  they  would  to  a  certain  ex- 
tent, keep  up  a  suilicient  supply  for  the 
more  voracious  tish  to  live  u])on.  When 
that  otlier  destroyer  of  tish,  mankind, 
comes  in,  lie  destroys  tliat  balance 
altogether,  and  he  has  done  it. 

The  consequence  is,  that  whitefish,  of 
all  others,  should  be  protected,  and  a 
close  season  should  be  established  for 
them  beyond  all  ([uestion.  1  propose 
tluit  every  state  bordering  on  the  waters 
which  are  also  within  the  jurisdiction 
of  Canada,  sliall  now  meet  the  Canadian 
authorities  in  establishing  close  seasons 
for  these  tish. 

In  Canada  we  have  established  a  close 
season  for  the  month  of  November  and 
we  find  every  evidence,  which  cannot  be 
very  well  controverted,  that  it  is  the 
proper  month.  With  my  view  it  per- 
haps should  be  a  little  more  than  the 
month  of  November,  but  the  month  of 
November  will  fairly  cover  the  spawn- 
ng  season  of  whitefish  throughout  every 


water  in  this  convinent  to  which  they 
are  indigenous. 

As  I  said  this  morning,  'n  referring  to 
the  matter,  a  commission  has  been  ap- 
pointed by  the  Canadian  (rovernment 
to  get  information  concerning  tlie 
s|)awning  periods  of  lishes  and  the  de- 
scription of  the  nets  use<l  to  catch  them, 
with  a  view  of  reporting  to  the  govern- 
iii'iit  that  it  might  perhaps  take  some 
better  means  to  protect  the  lisli.  This 
(•(mimission  has  been  at  work  Uir  the 
last  »'\x  weeks,  and  they  have  found  a', 
every  i»lac(!  wherever  they  have  been 
along  tlie  shores  of  Lake  Krie,  Lake 
Huron,  Georgian  Bay,  Lake  Simcoe  and 
a  portion  of  ]..ake  Ontario,  that  the  fish- 
ermen all  unanimously  say  it  is  judicious 
to  have  a  close  season,  but  to  a  certain 
extent  disagree  as  to  when  it  should  be. 
Some  say  a  shorter  period  than  the 
month  of  November  and  some  say  a 
shorter  period,  would  be  fallacious, 
but  at  the  same  time  they  all  maintain 
there  should  be  a  close  season  for  the 
pH'servation  of  fish. 

The  greatest  obstacle  we  have  met 
with  is  this :  They  say  that  while  we  ad- 
vocate the  propriety  of  a  close  season  for 
white  and  other  lish,  it  would  appe.ir  to 
be  almost  useless  to  carry  it  out  on  the 
Canadian  shores,  when  our  cousins  across 
the  water  have  no  close  season.  That  is 
the  greatest  obstacle  we  have  to  encount- 
er. All  sorts  of  opposition  has  l)een 
brought  against  our  close  season.  They 
state  it  has  had  this  effect,  that  they,  as 
Canadian  citizens,  cannot  catch  fish,  but 
when  they  look  across  the  water  they 
find  the  Americans  are  lisliiiig  during 
that  period,  still  those  in  ofHcial  posi- 
tion simply  say  this  that  if  the  United 
States  authorities  take  no  action  to 
preserve  their  fisheries  it  is  no  rea- 
son why  the  Canadians  should  not 
take  action  to  preserve  theirs,  because 
in  the  end  it  must  l)e  beneficial  to  us, 
as  those  who  do  not  preserve  the  fish 
must  afterward  come  to  us  to  get  their 
supplies  of  lish. 

So  it  is  difficult  with  us  to  thoroughly 
establish  a  close  season  for  the  fish  when 
you  have  no  close  season  on  your  side  of 


24 


the  water.  I  am  inclined  to  think  it'  tlie 
people  here  go  on,  as  they  have  been,  for 
a  series  of  years  to  come  upon  your  side 
of  the  international  boundary  of  the 
lakes,  the  waters  will  become  wholly 
depleted  of  fish,  but  I  think  if  the  two 
countries  will  join  together  the  result 
will  bo  very  henelicial. 

Now,  I  will  state  as  briefly  as  possible, 
the  g'-'jat  damage  that  has  resulted  from 
the  want  of  ])roi)er  laws  for  a  i)eriod  of 
years  back,  and  I  will  give  you  a  little 
information  that  I  have  obtained  in  the 
last  three  or  four  weeks  from  ])ractical 
lishermen — men  who  have  been  engaged 
in  fishing  for  the  list  Hfty  years.  Tliis 
information  has  been  received  under 
oath  from  them,  and  therefore  can  be 
more  fully  relied  upon  than  if  merely 
given  in  the  ordinary  way.  We  find 
that  (in  the  Georgian  Bay,  which  is  very 
extensively  lished  in  connection  with 
Lake  H'lron,  there  are  a  great  number 
of  Hsher'uen  there  wl  o  formerly  fished 
on  Lake  Ontario  tb'rty  or  forty  years 
ago.  The  white  iish  at  that  time  were 
very  abundant  there,  and  we  have  jnsi- 
tive  evidence  from  a  number  of  persois 
who  say  that  they  Hsbed  in  Lake  Ontario 
some  tiurty  years  ago,  and  it  was  not 
uniisual  for  them  to  catch  as  many  as 
twenty,  thirty  and  foiS'  tlumsand  white 
fish  at  one  haul  of  the  .^'ine  in  a  night, 
and  we  have  this  sworn  t  vident;e  of  two 
others  who,  it  appeared,  had  joined  to- 
gether in  fishing  on  one  or  two  occa- 
sions; tlu.t  one  night  they  caught  !H),000 
white  fish  with  a  seine.  Well,  it  went 
on,  there  was  nothing  to  prevent  it  at 
that  time,  there  was  no  close  season, 
and  they  diii  as  they  pleased.  Tiie 
(piestion  was  then  put  to  them,  why 
did  you  leave  Lake  Ontario  and  come  up 
here  and  fish  in  (ieorgian  liay?  "  Well, 
sir,  we  left  because  the  Iish  had  gnue; 
we  juilled  up  our  stakes  and  left  Lake 
Ontario  and  came  ui>  to  the  (ieorgian 
Hay  to  fish."  Nothing  can  be  plainer 
than  that. 

There  was  a  lake  at  one  time  most 
abundantly  supplied  oy  nature  with 
tish.  The  lishermen  had  to  leave  that 
lake  and  go  up  to  the  Georgian  Bay  to 


fish,  and  are  there  now  engaged  in  fish- 
ing, but  they  say,  "If  you  allow  this 
same  procedure  to  go  on,  although  you 
have  a  law  now,  loosely  carried  out  as  it 
is,  the  same  results  will  be  experienced 
in  Goorgian  Bay  as  in  Lake  Ontario. 
Nothing  can  be  more  clear  to  my  mind 
than  that  the  want  of  judicious  laws 
some  years  ago  has  been  the  cause  for 
the  loss  of  the  aliundanr  supply  of  Hsli 
in  Lake  Ontario.  The  fisliing  has  been 
destroyed  tliere  so  that  the  lake  is  now 
depleted,  and  the  lishermen  have  to  go 
to  the  western  lakes.  I  therefore  think 
that  nothing  can  be  more  evident  than 
that  there  should  be  a  close  season  for 
white  fish. 

The  second  question  is,  "  If  yes,  what 
shall  be  the  limit?"  I  have  expressed 
my  views  on  that  quction,  that  I  think 
it  should  be  the  month  of  Xovend)er, 
l)ecause  from  the  evidence  we  have  ob- 
tained on  Lakes  Erie,  Huron,  (reorgian 
Bay  and  portions  of  Lake  Ontario,  it 
seems  that  the  mo.st  favorable  season 
for  the  emission  of  eggs  of  the  white 
fisii  is  in  the  month  of  November,  :"rom 
about  the  oth  to  the  15th  or  20th,  vary- 
ing a  little,  sometimes  to  the  end  of  the 
month,  and  in  some  cases  it  begins  per- 
haps as  early  as  the  middle  of  October, 
but  the  month  of  November  throughout 
all  these  waters,  I  am  now  convinced, 
will  cover  the  spawning  season  of  the 
white  fish.  Do  I  understand  the  chair- 
man that  we  are  to  take  the  whole  of 
these  four  (juestions? 

Tlie  Chairman :  I  think  it  would  be 
more  convenient  to  do  so;  they  natur- 
ally come  tog.  ther,  and  I  think  it  would 
be  better. 

ISlr.  Wilmot:  Then  the  next  is:  "Shall 
a  restriction  be  put  upon  th.e  si/e  of 
tish  to  be  taken  or  had  in  poss(^ssion, 
or  on  the  size  of  the  niesli  ?"  These 
are  three  imj>  >  tant  subjt'cts.  It  is  ne- 
cessary for  the  preservation  of  fish  in  all 
waters  that  there  .'-hould  be,  llrst,  a 
proper  close  season  for  their  spawning 
time;  second,  we  should  decide  what 
time  of  year  this  shall  be;  and  third, 
there  should  bea  regulation  with  regard 
to  the  mesh  that  mav  be  used  for  catcii- 


LA 


it 


ing  them,  in  order  to  prevent  immature 
fiyh  from  being  caiig'it. 

From  tiie  experience  I  have  had  of 
more  than  a  half  centnry  with  regard  to 
tiiis  matter,  I  t  unk  that  tlie  proper 
order  in  wiiieh  tlies^e  (luesiions  wliould 
be  phiced  is<,  first,  the  proper  close  sea- 
son to  allow  the  mother  liah  to  spawn, 
and  second,  a  regulation  to  prevent  tiie 
immature  and  small  fish  being  taken, 
those  not  large  enough  for  the  market 
or  large  enough  to  reproduce  their  spe- 
cies, and  the  last  is  the  artilicial  propa- 
gation. I  have  talked  upon  the  proper 
close  season,  which  1  trust  will  a])pear 
necessary  to  you. 

The  regulation  of  the  i.\"sh  is  now  an 
important  (piestion  because  we  lind 
from  our  investigation,  not  only  during 
the  past  si.x  weeks,  but  from  what  has 
come  under  my  observation  for  the  last 
twenty  years,  that  i)erliai)s  as  much  <le- 
struction  is  caused  ))y  the  killing  of 
the  immature  tish  as  of  the  mother  fish. 
The  mother  fish  may  produce  something 
but  if  you  allow  the  destruction  of  the 
young  before  they  an;  able  to  rei)roduce, 
it  is  like  cutting  a  string  oft"  at  both  ends, 
you  soon  exterminate  the  species  alto- 
gether. I  should  therefore  conti'iid  that 
tlu;  regulation  of  the  mesh  is  just  as  im- 
portant a  matter  as  a  I'lose  season 
almost.  The  mesh  should  be  regulated 
with  every  descrii)ti(ni  of  net.  But  the 
difficulty  comes  up  with  regard  to  the 
ditterent  kinds  of  net  now  in  use.  The 
pound  net  is  advocated  by  a  great  many 
as  being  the  best  engine.  Others  again 
contend  that  the  gill  n(>t  is  the  best,  but 
I  think  ui»on  the  whole  that  the  })ountl 
net,  if  it  is  properly  regulated,  is  superior 
so  far  as  the  (juality  of  the  fish  produced 
on  the  market  is  concerned  and  idso  for 
the  preservation  of  young  tish,  if  tlm 
mesh  is  properly  arranged.  We  find  all 
the  way  through  that  the  pound  net  lias 
been  put  in  operation  without  any  sort 
of  regulation  as  to  the  size  of  the  mesh, 
or  as  to  the  pot  and  leader  or  anything. 
The  fishermen  have  been  allowed  to  do 
just  as  they  j>leased  in  every  possibht 
way.  The  consecpienee  is  that  it  has 
run  <lown  to  such  an  «'Xtent  tliat  the  pot 


or  pound  in  which  tlie  fish  are  usually 
caught  has  goiu'  down  to  a  mesh  of  two 
inch,  or  an  inch  bar.  The  contKMiuence 
is,  that  everything  that  gets  in  them 
will  be  caught,  and  the  destruction  has 
been  going  on  by  wholesale  and  it  be- 
comes the  duty  of  all  persons  who  ari> 
the  eonservers  of  the  fishing  interests  of 
the  country  to  establish  a  proper  mesh 
for  the  [lot  ol"  the  pound  net,  otherwise 
you  are  doing  as  much  hai'iu  nearly  as  i" 
killing  the  mother  fish  with  her  eggs. 

Yoi.  can  reailily  umlerstand  with  an 
inch  bar  or  a  two-inch  mesh,  a  net  must 
be   very   destructive   to   almost    every- 
thing   and   y(ni    will    understand   that 
whitetish    of   six,   seven,  eight    or  nine 
inches,  are  taken   in  abundance.     The 
strongest  evidence  of  tlieir  i)eing  unsal- 
able, is  that  they  are  buried  in  the  sands. 
(^ould  anything  be  more  wicked?     Hut 
we  have  evidence  strongly  to  that  eflect 
that  they  get  into  these  nets  and  the 
lishernieii  are  not  going  to  be  bothered 
with  letting  them  go  again,  and  in  fact 
th(i  white  lish  is  so  delicate  in  its  nature 
that  the  sliy;htest  injury  causes  its  tleatli, 
and  they  bring  them  ashore  and  they 
are   some   times   l)uried    in    the    sands. 
You  can  readily  understand  what  a  vast 
amount  of  injury  results  from  that.     In 
the  first   place,  it  is  the  killing  during 
the   el(-se   svasoii    and   the  next   is  the 
killing    of    the    immatuiH-    fish.      This 
should  be  remedied  by  all  means,  and  if 
the  Tnited  States  authorities  would  join 
with  Canada  in  these  matters  and  regu- 
late the  pound  net  with   regard  to  its 
mesh,   something  may    result   from   it. 
Mut  to  allow  the  matter  to  go  on  as  it  is 
now,  nothing  else  but  ruin  will  be  the 
result.     This  not  only  applies  to  white- 
fish,  lint  to  every  other  kind  of  lish.     A 
mesh  (jf  an  inch  or  two  inches  will  take 
almost  anything  in  the  way  of  fish  and 
when  you  legislate  in  favor  of  whitelish. 
you  legislate  in  favor  of  every  other  fish 
which   is  valuable  as  a  table  fish  or  for 
commercial  purposes. 

Now.  as  to  artificial  iirii|iagatioii.  1 
may  be  said  to  Ix;  one  of  the  fathers  ol 
it  on  this  continent,  but  1  Iiave  never 
gone   HO   far   or   been   so   foolish   at;   tu 


\ 


^6 


■I  I 


make  a  remark  that  by  this  means  we 
are  going  to  overcome  nature.  I  have 
always  hold  that  artificial  breeding  of 
fish  was  merely  a  supplemental  aid  to 
nature.  To  say  that  it  is  going  to  outdo 
nature,  and  that  we  can  use  artifice 
and  allow  man  to  destroy  as  he  wishes, 
is  a  fallacy.  I  have  never  held  that 
view.  But,  let  us  have  the  size  of  the 
meshs  for  your  nets  regulated  on  the 
American  side  of  our  lakes  aj.d  the 
Canadian  side,  and  I  think  there  is  a 
chance  of,  to  a  certain  extent,  recuper- 
ating this  wealth  which  is  now  nearly 
gone.  Therefore  I  think  it  behooves  an 
intelligent  gathering  like  this  to  come 
to  a  conclusion,  and  prei)aie  for  their 
proper  authorities  reports  showing  the 
necessity  for  having  a  description  of  net 
that  may  be  used  which  would  not  de- 
stroy the  immature  fish,  and  it  further 
behooves  them  to  use  all  the  influence 
they  can  to  obtain  a  proper  close  season 
and  see  that  the  laws  in  this  regard  are 
properly  enforced. 

The  Chairman :  Gentlemen  of  the  con- 
ference— The  matter  is  open  for  your 
discussion  and  we  will  bo  very  glad  to 
hear  from  any  of  you. 

Mr.  Huntington:  I  would  like  to  have 
Mr.  Wilmot  explain  their  system  and 
to  what  extent  they  are  protecting  the 
whitefish,  and  also  their  laws  as  to  the 
size  of  the  mesh. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  The  close  season  of  Can- 
ada at  the  presei.t  time,  which  has  been 
in  force  for  a  number  of  years,  is  the 
month  of  November.  There  was  a 
change  a  few  years  ago  to  the  first  ten 
days  of  November,  and  they  were  set 
aside  as  the  close  season,  but  that  was  a 
mistake.  It  did  not  cover  a  sufHcient 
period  of  time,  and  they  have  extended 
the  time  now  to  the  month  of  Novem- 
ber, because  in  doing  tiiat  it  takes  in 
the  whole  of  the  breeding  sea.'^on  of 
while  lisli.  But  the  difliculty  has  been 
that  in  many  instances  political  inllu- 
ence  has  been  such  that  a  few  individu- 
als in  a  locality  will  club  togetiier  and 
say,  "  That  close  season  does  not  satisfy 
us,  and  we  will  apply  to  the  gentleman 
who  represents  our  constituency  to  have 


it  set  aside  for  a  time,"  or  something  in 
that  way.  We  have  found  the  greatest 
difliculty  runs  in  that  line.  Take  the 
Detroit  River,  for  instance.  It  is  the 
international  boundary  and  it  is  a  nar- 
row stream,  but  the  white  lish  have  be- 
come almost  exterminated  simply  be- 
cause it  was  a  resort  for  the  white  fish 
of  Lake  Erie  to  come  and  cast  their  eggs 
and  reproduce  their  young.  We  in  Can- 
ada always  had  a  close  season  for  white 
lish,  but  on  the  American  side  they  have 
not  had  a  close  season,  and  conse<iuent- 
ly  the  (lovcrnment  of  Canada  has  been 
importuned  from  time  to  time  to  do 
away  with  the  close  season  as  far  as  the 
Detroit  River  is  concerned,  and  those 
who  have  advocated  that  question 
gained  tl  eir  point  in  a  measure,  so  that 
in  many  cases  the  close  season  of  the 
Detroit  River  has  been  set  aside  for  a 
year  to  gratify  the  'greed  of  the  fisher- 
men on  the  Canadian  side.  The  conse- 
quence has  been  that  by  excessive  fish- 
ing on  the  part  of  the  people  on  the 
American  side,  with  the  aid  of  the  Ca- 
nadians on  their  side,  the  Detroit  River, 
once  famous  for  white  fish,  has  become 
almost  depleted.  It  is  very  difficult 
now  to  get  enough  fish  to  supply  the 
hatcheries  with  eggs  from  the  Detroit 
River,  while  some  eighteen  years  ago, 
ann  in  one  afternoon,  I  have  gotten  all 
the  eggs  we  wanfj^d  for  our  hatcheries. 

Mr.  Huntington:  I  will  state  that 
what  I  desired  was  that  you  should  give 
us  the  matter  as  it  stands  to-day,  whai. 
protection  you  are  aflbrding  the  white 
fish  on  the  lakes.  In  other  words,  what 
are  the  laws  aflfecting  the  white  fish  to- 
day? 

Mr.  Wilmot:  The  laws  of  the  present 
day  in  ('unada  are  that  the  month  of 
November  is  designated  as  a  elosc  sea- 
son, but  unfortuiuitely  in  Canada,  as  in 
every  other  country,  these  laws  are 
overrun,  and  they  still  continue  to  catch 
fish  in  certain  localities,  but  we  are  un- 
der the  iini)ression  that  if  the  antliori- 
tiei^  on  the  I'nited  States  side  will  join 
ns,  we  can  carry  L  out  to  much  greater 
perfection. 

Mr.  Huntington:  Have  you  anv  legu- 


27 


lation  in  regard  to  the  mesh  of  the 
net? 

Mr.  Wihnot:  It  is  the  wish  of  the  Do- 
minion of  Canada  to  establish  laws  for 
the  regulation  of  the  pound  net.  The 
regulation  was  passed  last  year,  and  im- 
mediately afterward  opposition  was 
brought  to  bear  by  the  fisln'rmen,  and 
it  was  left  in  abeyance  and  i)ut  over  for 
a  short  time  until  an  investigation 
should  be  made  by  a  committee  or  by  a 
deputation  which  consisted  of  myself 
and  my  friends  here,  and  we  have  gone 
around  the  lakes  and  obtained  all  the 
information  we  can,  and  have  come  to 
the  conclusion  that  the  pound  net  of 
the  present  description  and  mesh,  viz., 
an  inch  mesh,  is  one  of  the  most  de- 
structive engines  in  existence.  The 
pound  net,  witli  a  proper  regulation  of 
mesh,  might  be  perhaps  the  best  engine 
for  catching  lish. 

Mr.  Huntington:  What  kind  of  net 
would  yon  recommend? 

Mr.  Wilmot:  I  would  recommend  the 
pound  net  as  being  superior  to  any  other 
if  regulated  with  a  proper  description  of 
mesh. 

Mr.  Huntington :  The  question  I  ask 
is  what  mesh  ? 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Nothinu;  less  than  four 
or  four  and  a  half  inches. 

The  Secretary :  Four  and  a  half  exten- 
sion? 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Four  and  a  half  indi  ex- 
tension, or  five  inches.  We  ha.e  found 
that  nearly  all  the  whitefish  caught  in 
Lake  Superior,  Lake  Huron  and  Lake 
Erie  are  cauglit  in  a  net  witli  a  mesh  of 
four  and  a  half  to  live  inches  and  the 
fishermen  seem  to  be  satisfied  with  that, 
but  when  you  bring  it  down  to  an  incii 
stpiarc  mesh,  or  two-inch  extension  mesii 
in  the  pound  net,  you  catch  everything, 
— imnuiture  fish,  young,  old  and  every- 
thing. 

Mr.  Huntington:  With  a  four  and  a 
half  inch  mesh  how  would  you  catch 
herring? 

Mr.  Wilmot:  You  might  as  well  say, 
if  you  got  an  inch  mesh  or  an  inch  and 
a  half  Hijuare  for  catching  whitefish  or 
anv  other  kind  of  fish,  wluit  would  vou 


do  with  regard  to  catching  small  herring. 
It  is  simply  this,  if  you  wish  to  preserve 
other  kinds  of  fish  than  the  whitefish, 
then  you  must  establish  a  net  that 
little  fish  vvill  be  caught  in,  otherwise 
they  will  be  lost  as  they  have  in  Lake 
Ont,ario  and  as  they  are  going  in  Lake 
Huron.  The  whitefish  on  the  Canadian 
side  are  protected  by  the  month  of  No- 
vember as  a  close  season,  and  so  far  as 
is  possible  the  law  is  carried  out,  but  we 
all  know  perfectly  well  that  much  illegal 
fishing  is  carried  on  in  places  on  the 
various  lakes,  but  the  close,  season  of 
tlie  month  of  November  is  kept  for 
whitefish  in  Canada,  and  as  you  know  we 
are  meeting  with  the  greatest  difficulty 
in  the  world  to  carry  out  our  laws.  Our 
fishermen  say  that  their  neighbors  on 
the  opposite  side  of  the  lakes  have  no 
close  season  for  whitefish,  and  you  en- 
force a  close  season  with  us.  Yet,  when 
you  go  around  and  make  an  investigation 
as  my  two  friends  and  myself  have  been 
doing,  for  the  last  six  weeks,  you  will 
understand  the  situation.  We  find  they 
all  come  uj)  and  say  that  a  close  season 
is  most  advisable,  but  we  would  like  you 
to  make  the  Americans  have  a  close  sea- 
son. This,  of  course,  we  cannot  do,  but 
I  hope  from  the  remarks  that  will  fol- 
low this  evening,  that  the  gentlemen 
who  represent  the  various  states  border- 
ing on  the  lakes,  with  Canada,  will  see 
the  propriety  of  having  a  close  season 
for  whitefish,  and  that  it  is  thoroughly 
canied  out. 

The  Chairman:  As  I  understand,  you 
prohil)it  all  netting  that  month? 

Mr.  Wilmot:  We  prohibit  fishing  of 
all  kinds  for  salmon,  trout  or  whitefish, 
and  herring.  They  are  all  of  the  same 
family  and  they  all  spawn  about  the 
same  time. 

Mr.  Keyes :  I  would  like  to  ask  if  there 
is  a  law  in  Canada  ])rotrcting  the  stur- 
geon and  that  kind  of  hsii  ? 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Yes,  we  have  a  law 
which  protects  our  spring  spawning  fish, 
taking  in  particularly  ba.ss  and  pike, 
and  muskalonge  and  others  considered 
of  commercial  value.  We  have  a  law  in 
Canada  which  takes  in  the  close  season 


'J-^ 


Ct'i-t*'*^^ 


/ 


28 


mi 


II 


of  the  montli  of  November  to  cover  the 
salmon  trout,  the  wliitefisli  and  the  her- 
rinfr. 

The  Chairman:  ^\  e  have  with  uh  a 
number  of  fishermen,  and  we  would  be 
very  glad  to  hear  from  tliem  on  this 
subject.  . 

]\Ir.  Keyes,  of  Oliio:  Kegarding  this 
matter  of  a  close  season  I  have  certainly 
some  convictions.  The  difficulty  along 
our  part  of  the  line  of  Lake  Erie,  which 
we  nave  to  encounter,  is  that  the  time 
that  you  can  take  these  fish  best  for  the 
market  is  in  the  month  of  November, 
and  in  no  other  month  to  speak  of  can 
you  take  any  white  fish  in  the  head  of 
J^ake  Erie.  It  is  true  that  the  head  of 
Lake  Erie  is  the  natural  sp  .ning 
ground  probably  for  the  wlu'e  fisii,  but 
if  you  do  not  take  them  in  the  fall  with 
pound  nets  and  other  ap;)liances  in  the 
head  of  Lake  Erie,  they  must  then  take 
them  with  the  gill  nets.  But  in  the 
head  of  Lake  Erie  is  wliere  they  do 
catch  them,  and  even  now,  in  the  de- 
l)leted  condition  of  Lake  Erie,  they 
catch  them  in  certain  (juantities  in  the 
spring.  Of  course  white  fish  have  large- 
ly d(!creased,  but  there  were  more  white 
fish  taken  this  fall  in  Lake  Erie  than 
have  be.-d  taken  for  a  number  of  j'ears. 
Probably  this  may  be  due  to  white  fish 
propairation,  but  1  think  it  more  largely 
due  to  the  fact  that  it  has  ceased  to  be 
profitable  to  fish  with  gill  nets,  and 
consetiuently  the  only  white  fish  that 
are  taken  to  speak  of  are  those  on  the 
spawning  grounds  that  com(>  to  the 
head  of  Lake  Erie  in  tiie  fall  and  are  ta- 
ken in  the  i>ounds,  except  a  few  taken 
with  gill  nets  at  the  head  of  Lake  Erie. 
The  law  of  the  State  of  Oliio  is  that  no 
gill  or  pound  net  can  be  set  upon  a  reef 
in  the  spawning  season,  and  it  names 
th(^  tinu',  but  these  gill  nets  that  „atch 
the  white  fish  on  the  !"ad  of  Lake  Erie 
are  always  on  the  nu'fs. 

The  Chairman  :   What  is  that  time? 

^Ir.  Keyes:  It  is  at  any  time;  no  gill 
net  or  pound  net  can  be  placed  upon  a 
reef  in  the  waters  of  Ohio  at  any  season 
of  the  year.  And  there  is  where  all  the 
gill  net  white  fish  are  taken,  upon  the 


reefs.  With  the  poun<l  net  of  course  it 
is  the  fish  that  comes  to  it,  it  cannot  go 
after  a  flsh.  It  is  a  stationary  net  and 
the  leaders  and  the  heart  are  all  from 
six  to  seven  inch  mesh  in  size. 

The  .Secretary :  How  is  the  pot  ? 

Mr.  Keyes :  That  is  usually  two  inches. 

The  Secretary :  Two  inch  extension  ? 

Mr.  Keyes:  One  inch  bar;  we  call  it 
two  inch  mesh. 

Th(!  Chairman:  What  part  of  the  net 
do  you  say  is  six  or  seven  inches? 

Mr.  Keyes :  The  leader  and  the  heart. 
The  leader  of  the  net  is  the  part  the  fish 
travel  along,  say  SO  or  90  rods  in  length. 
In  former  times  tliey  used  to  fish  the 
pots,  so-called,  with  meshes  as  high  as 
hree  and  a  quarter  or  three  and  a  half 
inches,  but  jit  kJUed  so  many  fish  that 
way  that  it  was  almost  impossible  to 
raise  the  nets,  and  it  would  destroy 
them  in  a  couple  of  seasons.  It  is  diffi- 
cult to  say  as  to  the  size  of  the  mesh. 
Of  course  you  might  get  it  big  enough  so 
that  even  a  sturgeon  would  go  through, 
but  you  will  alwaj's  strike  a  size  which 
will  gill  a  certain  proportion,  and  of 
course  they  die  and  are  utterly  useless 
as  a  commercial  coi  imodity.  They  are, 
in  my  opinion,  not  (it  to  eat.  When  a 
fish  is  drowned  by  reason  of  being  gilled 
in  a  net  there  is  no  question  that  almost 
'Mstartly  that  fish  becomes  in  a  measure 
decomposed.  I  am  referring  no  v\'  to  the 
dead  fish  ^nly  that  are  in  a  net,  whether 
it  is  a  gill  net  or  a  pound  net,  and  no 
one  ever  saw  a  fish  that  came  out  of  the 
water  dead  that  was  not  bloated  to  a 
certain  extent,  and  of  course  no  one 
will  say  that  a  bhjated  flsh  is  a  good  flsh 
to  eat. 

The  Secretary:  That  is  a  very  strong 
argument  against  gill  nets. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  am  very  much  opposed 
to  the  gill  net  system,  but  I  am  not  say- 
ing anything  about  it.  I  think  that  it 
is  wrong  to  fish  with  it  under  any  cir- 
cumstances at  any  time.  I  do  not  think 
a  net  should  be  so  set  that  a  fish  can 
struggle  and  struggle  and  struggle  until 
it  dies  from  exhaustion  and  exertion. 
I  do  not  think  that  is  a  proper  way  to 
Kill  an  animal  for  food — any  more  than 


! 


29 


onrse  it 

11  not  go 

let  anil 

all  from 

inches, 
ision? 
call  it 


that  the  laws  of  any  state  or  of  Canada 
should  i)ermit  the  stranj^ling  of  cattle  and 
then  have  them  put  on  the  market.  If 
you  had  an  animal  that  was  strangled  in 
the  crib  and  hung  there  until  it  died, 
you  might,  if  you  did  not  have  a  good 
honest  conscience  say,  well,  I  will  sell 
this  to  ray  neighbor,  I  Will  not  eat  it.  It 
might  iiot  kill  your  neighbor,  of  course, 
but  it  would  not  be  food  you  would  put 
on  your  own  table. 

Now,  the  .close  season  question  is  a 
(juestion  of  vital  interest  and  importaiice. 
There  is  a  close  season  already  in  the 
State  of  Ohio,  which  is  from  the  1.5th 
day  of  June  until  the  15th  day  of  Sep- 
tember. That  of  course  is  not  in  the 
spawning  season  of  the  white  iish,  and 
that  law  was  strictly  enforced  last  year 
and  pretty  well  enforced  the  year  before. 
This  fall  a  good  many  of  the  pound  net 
men  who  drove  their  pound  stakes, 
hung  on  their  leaders,  and  they  never 
lifted  their  nets,  mind  you.  Mr.  Osborn 
and  his  brother  had  those  men  arrested 
and  fined  and  they  had  to  pay  their 
fine ;  they  never  took  the  fish  out  of  the 
net.  But  I  never  heard  of  a  gill  net 
man  being  arrested  for  his  work,  and 
they  are  always  fishing  on  the  reefs. 

Now,  us  to  the  b'g  mesh  of  which  Mr. 
Wilmot  has  spoken.  If  it  was  practical  it 
would  be  a  good  idea,  but  to  i)ut  a  mesh 
of  say  four  or  four  and  a  half  inc^hes,  a 
large  majority  of  the  herring  would  go 
through  that,  and  you  could  not  catcli 
them  at  all,  and  the  greater  majority  of 
the  big  ones  would  certainly  stick  fast 
in  the  net.  I  agree  with  him  most  de- 
cidedly, and  a  committee  has  already 
been  appointed  in  our  section  embrac- 
ing the  whole  of  the  head  of  Lake  Erie, 
Toledo,  Sandusky  and  Cleveland,  and  we 
will  get  a  law  passed  in  the  Legislature 
this  winter,  making  it  a  penalty  with  a 
reasonably  heavy  fine  attached  for  any 
fishermen  who  shall  bring  ashore  from 
their  nets  any  fish  under  size  and  unsuit- 
able for  the  market,  and  also  a  penalty 
upon  any  man  who  will  sell  them.  Some 
of  the  fishermen  say,  we  cannot  sort 
them,  but  we  i)ut  the  (piestion  to  them 
and  (understand  we  all  fish  nets  as  well  as 


handle  fish  on  shore),  "  Suppose  there 
was  a  penalty  of  !?25  for  the  first  offense 
and  S50  for  the  second  offense  for  l)ring- 
ing  ashore  a  lisli  less  than  a  certain  size 
established  by  law,  don't  you  suppose 
you  could  pick  them  out?"  "Oh,  yea 
if  we  had  to,  but  it  would  take  longer 
time."  Of  course,  but  let  them  take 
longer,  that  is  all. 

There  is  no  doubt  that  the  destruction 
of  the  small  fish  is  a  grevious  offense 
against  the  industry  and  ought  to  be 
stopped,  and  it  can  be  stopped.  There 
is  no  question  but  what  in  the  i)Ound 
net  system  the  small  fish  can  be  thrown 
overboard  and  allowed  to  go.  Of  course 
some  may  come  in  with  some  catch, 
there  is  no  certainty  to  it.  Now,  take  a 
pound  net.  I  speak  of  the  pound  net 
for  I  have  never  fished  with  a  gill  net 
and  I  hope  I  never  will.  The  pound  net 
is  set  stationary,  with  poles,  it  cannot 
be  moved.  If  the  fish  go  to  it  and  follow 
its  leaders  it  takes  them.  A  majority  of 
the  fish  could  go  right  through  the  leader. 
There  is  not  a  herring  that  will  ever  gill 
in  a  leader  or  heart.  In  the  fall  we 
have  found  a  few  that  have  gilled.  Fish 
spawn  all  over  the  head  of  Lake  Erie. 
I  do  not  believe  there  is  any  place  they 
do  not  spawn  when  they  get  in  the  shal- 
low water. 

The  headwaters  of  Lake  Erie,  com- 
mencing on  a  line  about  Vermillion, 
directly  opposite  the  dummy  light  on 
Pelee  Island  Point,  is  what  gill  net  men 
call  the  reef.  On  this  ridge,  of  late 
years,  they  have  set  dieir  gill  nets. 
Now  then  tiie  (juestion  arises,  and  it  is 
a  fair  question  for  gill  net  men  and 
pound  net  men  and  every  other  man 
connected  with  fisheries,  whether  the 
reduction  in  the  catch  of  fish  is  so  much 
owing  to  the  amount  of  fish  caught  by 
the  nets  of  all  tlescriptions  as  it  is  owing 
to  the  amount  of  fish  that  are  turned 
back  from  the  natural  spawning  grounds 
and  not  allowed  to  deposit  their  eggs 
where  nature  requires  it,  and  thus  tlieir 
spawn  becomes  less.  Nature  comj)els 
them  to  go  to  a  certain  place  to  lay  tlieir 
eggs,  and  if  they  cannot  reach  their 
spawning  grounds,  and  if  they  are  pre- 


30 


vented  by  nets  Htrniif;  along  there 
tlir<)U},'h  Iviiko  Erie  and  finally  deposit 
tlieir  Hi)awn  wherever  they  happen  to 
be,  that  si>a\vn  fails  to  reproduce — 
whether  that  accounts  for  the  reduction 
in  the  fish  or  whether  the  (luantity  of 
your  catch  accounts  for  itiHaijuestion.  I 
think  and  I  believe  it  is  the  general  opin- 
ion of  nearly  every  practical  fisherman 
who  sees  it,  that  it  is  much  the  greater 
reason  that  the  fish  are  not  productive 
by  reason  of  the  long  string  of  gill  nets 
which  prevents  them  from  getting  to 
the  natural  spawning  beds  of  Lake  Erie. 
You  take  it  just  a  little  above  Cleve- 
land and  you  will  find  strings  of  pound 
nets  reaching  out  into  the  lake,  eight, 
nine  and  ten  miles  from  the  shore, 
string  after  string  until  you  get  well  up 
,  towards  iSanduskv  Bav,  and  then  bevond 
those  iH)und  nets  are  strings  of  gill  nets 
reaching  clear  over  into  the  Canada 
waters  and  whether  there  is  a  close  sea- 
son in  Canada  or  not,  they  run  their  gill 
nets  <'lear  over  across  to  Pelee  Island, 
and  they  do  not  make  any  bones  about 
it.  There  is  a  wall  of  net  stretching  across 
Lake  Erie,  and  I  will  ask  how  those  fish 
can  reach  their  spawning  ground?  I  be- 
lieve that  if  a  law  could  be  passed  com- 
pelling fishermen  to  put  overboard  the 
small  fish  which  are  unsuitable  for  food 
and  unfit  for  the  market,  that  it  would 
be  a  far  greater  benefit  to  the  fishing  in- 
dustry of  the  gieat  lakes  than  to  have 
all  the  close  seasons  you  could  adopt. 
Now,  there  is  no  use  of  making  a  doi^e 
season  to  shut  out  this  article  qf  food. 
You  take  the  fishing  of  Ohio,  and 
you  take  the  month  of  November  out  of 
the  fishing  month,  and  you  might  just 
as  well  hang  uj)  your  nets  entirely  on 
the  American  side,  that  is,  on  the  head 
waters  The  month  of  November  is 
the  only  time  that  it  is  possil>le  to  catch 
the  fish,  that  is  to  fish  for  commerce, 
and  I  believe  this  meeting  is  more  in 
the  interest  of  commerce  than  it  is  of 
sj)ort,  bec^a'ise  if  it  was  a  mere  matter 
of  catching  fish  with  hook  and  line,  it 
would  not  matter  much  to  us  one  way 
or  the  other.  It  is  a  ijuestion  of  furnish- 
ing good  food  to  the   poorer  class  of 


people  of  this  country  as  well  as  the 
rich. 

You  take  the  '.lerring,  whi<'li  years  ago 
was  not  considered  of  any  value  simply 
because  the  other  fish  were  so  cheap. 
When  the  whitefish  became  so  high 
priced,  the  herring  then  went  on  the 
market,  and  it  is  greatly  demanded  in 
the  big  cities  of  the  east.  New  York, 
Philadelphia,  Baltimore  and  Washing- 
ton consume  at  least  two-thirds  of  all 
the  herring  that  are  taken  in  Lake  Erie 
—that  is  of  the  fresh  lierring  taken. 
They  go  onto  the  market  against  the 
salt  water  fish,  strange  as  it  may  seem, 
andibecause  it  is  so  cheap  and  supplies  a 
cliea])  food  and  a  good  food,  they  are  de- 
manded very  much.  There  are  a  great 
many  hundreds  of  thousands  of  dollars 
invested  in  fishing  boats  in  Lake  Erie 
and  especially  in  the  head  waters,  and 
when  I  refer  to  the  head  waters  I  mean 
from  Cleveland  up.  These  men  inter- 
ested have  their  plants,  they  have  got 
their  outfits,  their  boats  and  their  docks 
and  their  nets  and  their  vessels,  and 
they  see  before  them,  unless  something 
is  done,  a  very  near  future  when  fishing 
will  utterly  cease  in  Lake  Erie  as  it  has 
ceased  in  nearly  all  of  the  great  lakes,  and 
the  dealers  and  fishermen  are  ready  to 
go  hand  in  hand  with  unybody  or  with 
any  set  of  men  who  will  propose  a 
scheme  that  will  be  practicable  and  give 
some  hopes  of  reasonable  success.  But 
I  very  much  doubt  whether  a  law  estab- 
lishing a  close  season  of  November  could 
be  passed  in  the  State  of  Ohio,  and  if  it 
would  be  passed  it  would  simply  take 
that  product  entirely  out  of  the  market, 
because  that  is  the  month  in  which  th<»y 
are  caught.  They  would  simply  go  back 
to  the  lower  end  of  the  lake  and  be 
taken  with  other  appliances  in  the 
spring. 

Mr.  Osborn :  With  a  two-inch  mesh 
could  fishermen  get  clear  of  the  small 
fish,  throw  them  back? 

Mr.  Keyes:  The  (juestion  of  time  does 
not  enter  into  the  consideration  of  this 
question  at  all.  It  will  take  a  little 
longer  of  course  to  sort  them  out.  All 
they  have  got  to  do  is  to  handle  these 


fish 


•11  as  the 

years  ago 
le  simply 
io  clieap. 
so   high 
t  on  the 
anded  in 
w  York, 
iV'ashing- 
Is  of  all 
^ake  Erie 
ig  taken, 
ainst  the 
ay  seem, 
iipplies  a 
y  are  de- 
e  a  great 
•f  dollars 
ake  Erie 
ters,  and 

i  I  mean 
n  inter- 

liave  got 
■ir  dockfs 

^els,  and 

mething 

II  fishing 

as  it  has 

ikes,  and 

ready  to 
or  with 

opose  a 

iind  give 

ss.    But 

iv  estab- 

er could 

md  if  it 

ily  take 

market, 

ch  they 

go  oack 

and  be 

ill    the 

mesh 
}  small 

le  does 
of  this 
i  little 
t.  All 
these 


81 


fish  with  their  hands  and  th  row  the  small 
ones  overboard. 

The  Chairman :  I  would  like  to  know 
what  is  the  object  of  taking  the  young 
fish  in  the  net  at  all  if  you  are  going  to 
put  them  overboard? 

Mr.  Keyes:  You  cannot  lielp  your- 
self, the  fish  are  all  caught  together  and 
you  have  to  pick  them  out  just  as  they 
come,  you  cannot  sift  them  out  through 
a  sieve. 

The  Chairman:  Why  could  you  not 
regulate  it  as  suggested  here  by  the 
mesh  of  the  pot? 

Mr.  Keyes:  The  trouble  is,  you  would 
gill  so  many  fisli.  You  would  gill  more 
fish  that  are  of  a  suitable  size  for  the 
market  than  you  would  save  of  the 
small  fish  that  would  run  tlirough.  You 
will  often  catch  minnows  in  a  pound 
net,  but  what  is  to  hinder  minnows 
running  through  ?  Many  a  minnow  is 
caught,  the  fish  get  scared  and  the  first 
thing  they  know  they  are  in  there  with 
a  pile  of  fish  and  the  minnows  them- 
selves won't  get  through.  No  matter 
what  the  size  of  the  mesh  is,  any  prac- 
tical fisherman  will  tell  you  at  once  that 
you  would  still  get  many  of  the  small 
ones,  because  the  fish  do  not  go  through. 
If  they  did,  those  fish  need  not  follow 
these  leaders.  If  it  was  the  nature  of 
the  fish  to  run  through  every  hole  they 
could  find,  they  would  get  through  these 
leaders  at  all  times. 

The  Chairman:  I  was  going  to  call 
your  attention  to  that  because  we  know, 
as  a  matter  of  fact,  the  size  of  the  mesh 
of  the  leader  and  heart  cuts  no  figure 
whatever. 

Mr.  Keyes:  It  is  just  the  same,  that 
is,  the  fish  is  a  very  timid  animal,  and 
it  does  not  take  much  to  frighten  him. 
At  the  same  time  he  is  a  little  curious, 
and  so  he  follows  this  shadow,  while  he 
coiild  just  as  well  pass  through  if  he 
wanted  to,  if  he  had  any  ilesire  to  go 
that  way.  He  need  not  come  around, 
but  he  prefers  to  go  on.  It  is  the  same 
way  in  the  pound,  they  swim  round  and 
round. 

The  Secretary:  Do  you  think  if  the 


pot  has  a  small  mesh  the  fish  would  be 
hurt  less? 

Mr.  Keyes:  They  do  not  hurt  them  at 
all.  Take  it  when  there  is  a  heavy 
storm  which  lasts  for  two  or  three  days, 
and  you  will  find  very  few  of  the  fish 
hurt. 

Mr.  Post:  I  would  like  to  inquire 
what  the  season  of  herring  fishing  on 
Lake  Erie  is? 

Mr.  Keyes:  They  generally  commence 
to  catch  them  early  and  catch  them  all 
the  time.  You  catch  all  summer.  You 
may  commence  to  fish  in  the  latter  part 
of  September,  ,but  they  do  not  usually 
get  a  good  run  of  lierring  to  amount  to 
anything  until  the  20th  of  October. 

Mr.  Post:  It  is  pretty  nearly  over  in 
the  month  of  November? 

Mr.  Keyes :  We  get  the  heaviest  fish- 
ing Tisually  in  the  r  jnth  of  November, 
and  usually  the  best  week's  fishing 
along  about  Thanksgiving  Day. 

The  Secretary:  At  the  same  time  you 
get  these  herring  do  you  get  wliito  fish 
in  the  pound? 

Mr.  Keyes :  We  get  white  fish  all  the 
time,  but  in  limited  (juantities.  Of 
course  the  great  bulk  of  the  white  fish 
taken  in  the  head  of  Lake  Erie  are  taken 
in  the  gill  nets  upon  the  reefs. 

Mr.  Post:  I  thought  the  herring 
spawning  preceded  that  of  the  white 
fish? 

l\Ir.  Keyes :  It  does,  l)ut  the  white  fish 
come  on  about  the  same  time,  and  the 
spawning  season  is  the  same.  About 
the  1st  of  Noveml)er  we  generally  look 
for  spawn  in  the  boats  when  the  boats 
come  ashore. 

The  Secretary :  Some  years  ago  there 
were  not  so  many  herring  in  Lake  Krie 
as  now. 

Mr.  Keyes:  The  herring  fishery  has 
never  been  even.  There  pr<)])ably  never 
was  a  shorter  season  than  this  season 
for  tlie  last  fifteen  years.  There  prob- 
ably wen-  more  herring  taken  from  the 
waters  of  Lake  Erie  four  years  ago  than 
had  ever  been  taken  before.  That  sea- 
son the  Sandusky  freezers  had  2S  tons 
of  herring  frozen,  and  there  was  some- 
thing like  30,000  or  40,000  barrels  of  salt 


I    !' 


d!2 


J 


herring.  It  was  so  all  along  the  lakes. 
Before  tliat  there  had  heeii  .short  sea- 
sons, hut  not  auytliing  like  this  season. 

The  Secretary:  Take  an  ecjiial  numher 
of  pounds  of  herring  and  white  fish,  and 
what  is  the  difference  in  the  profit  to 
tlie  dealers. 

Mr.  Keyes:  Of  course  our  husiness  is 
ail  wholesale.  The  white  fish  are  ahout 
eight  cents  a  pound.  The  average  price 
for  fresh  herring  is  ahout  two  cents.  I 
am  speaking  of  this  Avinter.  Of  course 
the  herring  are  sold  in  the  markets  of 
Philadelphia,  when  they  are  plenty,  at 
ahout  $3.00  a  harrel. 

The  Secretary:  If  you  were  going  to 
have  one  or  the  other,  which  would  you 
prefer  for  your  husiness? 

Mr.  Keyes:  The  herring.  In  the  first 
place,  if  you  had  as  many  white  fish  as 
iierring  the  markets  oi"  the  country 
would  not  pay  any  more  than  three  or 
four  cents  a  pound,  and  I  douht  even  if 
they  would  take  them  then. 

The  Secretary:  If  white  fish  were  plen- 
ty they  would  be  that  price,  wouldn't 
they  ? 

]\Ir.  Keyes:  Certainly.  The  herring  is 
sold  largely  as  a  smoked  commodity.  It 
is  a  regular  business,  and  it  is  about  the 
only  fisli  treated  in  that  way  which  is  a 
success,  except  the  sturgeon.  That  is 
one  reason  why  it  is  becoming  so  popu- 
lar in  the  last  few  years.  It  is  only  a 
few  years  ago  that  we  had  no  freezers. 

I  want  to  get  back  to  the  question  of  a 
close  season.  As  between  Canada  and 
the  United  States,  it  is  a  question  of  con- 
siderable depth.  The  white  fish  does  not 
frequent  Canadian  waters ;  it  is  not  our 
experience  as  fishermen  at  all  that  it  fre- 
quents the  waters  of  Canada,  especially 
this  end  of  Lake  Erie,  as  they  do  the 
other  side.  The  spawning  beds  seem  to 
be  around  there.  If  you  shut  off  the 
month  of  November,  and  that  is  the 
spawning  month,  no  doubt ;  you  would 
destroy  the  whole  commercial  industry 
that  has  been  built  up  on  this  side  of 
the  lake,  and  of  course  you  understand 
that  would  be  (juite  a  task  to  perform. 
But  if  something  can  be  arrive<l  at  that 
wfU  not  destroy  this  fishing  industry. 


but  will  tend  to  build  it  up  and  preserve 
the  fishing,  I  do  not  think  there  is  a 
fisherman  that  is  not  willing  to  do  all  in 
his  power  to  help  it  along. 

The  Chairman:  During  how  many 
months  of  the  year  is  fishing  prosecuted 
in  Lake  Erie  ? 

Mr.  Keyes:  The  whole  year  round. 
In  Pennsylvania  there  is  no  law,  and  in 
Oliio  waters,  so  far  as  it  is  possible  for 
the  commissioners  to  enforce  the  law,  I 
think  they  are  enforcing  it.  There  is  no 
fishing  between  the  15th  of  June  and  the 
15th  of  September. 

The  Secretary :  Why  were  those  dates 
fixed;  what  is  accomplished  by  it? 

Mr.  Keyes:  Largely  fixed  from  the 
fact  that  the  fish  taken  at  that  time  is 
not  really  a  good  article  of  food.  It  was 
not  for  the  protection  of  the  fish  partic- 
ulary,  except  that  it  does  give  them 
three  or  four  months'  rest. 

The  Chairman :  Do  you  think  it  would 
be  an  unjust  thing  to  give  tlie  fish  a  rest, 
not  only  for  Lake  Erie  but  for  all  the 
lakes,  for  one  month  in  the  year? 

Mr.  Keyes:  It  would  depend  on  what 
month  you  select. 

The  Chairman:  The  spawning  month. 

Mr.  Keyes:  Th<^n  you  select  the  only 
month  in  the  year  in  which  that  fish  can 
be  taken  to  any  advantage,  and  there 
would  no  good  grow  out  of  the  law  be- 
ca^ise  you  would  not  get  the  fish  in  that 
neighborhood. 

The  Chairman:  What  are  they  doing 
the  other  11  months  in  the  year  in  Lake 
Erie? 

Mr.  Keyes :  When  they  can  get  out  in 
the  winter  with  their  gill  nets  they  fish 
all  winter.  They  do  not  catch  to  any 
great  extent,  but  they  are  fishing  now 
in  Lake  Erie  just  as  well  as  they  were 
last  fall.  They  fish  there  all  the  time 
in  deep  water  until  they  cannot  get 
their  tugs  out  because  of  the  ice,  and 
whether  a  certain  close  season  would  be 
a  good  thing  I  do  not  know.  I  do  not 
know  l)ut  a  close  season  in  the  winter 
would  certainly  be  a  benefit  to  the  fish 
as  well  as  in  the  summer,  but  if  you 
would  make  a  close  season  at  a  time 
when  they  can  be  best  caught  for  the 


38 


1  preserve 

lere  is  a 

>  <lo  all  in 


market,  which  is  in  the  month  (if  No- 
vember— 

The  Chairman:  Isn't  that  because 
they  are  running  on  to  the  Hpawning 
beds  and  you  know  those  are  well  de- 
lined  grounds  and  yoa  can  catcli  tlieni 
easier  at  that  time? 

Mr.  Keyes:  Tlie  whole  head  of  tiie 
lake,  from  Pelee  Island  and  the  Dummy 
Light  to  Vermillion,  is  one  continual 
spawning  ground.  I  claim  that  there  is 
not  one  fish  in  five  hundred  that  comes 
up  through  those  waters  that  ever  gets 
into  the  pound  net;  I  doubt  it  very 
much.  If  even  half  of  them  are  caught 
and  they  g.ve  time  for  the  other  half  to 
spawn,  you  will  have  all  the  spawn  you 
want.  It  is  a  question  in  my  mind 
whether  you  are  going  to  establish  a  rule 
that  will  allow  those  fish  to  get  on  the 
spawning  ground,  because  I  think  it  is 
going  to  be  difficult  to  get  a  law  through 
the  Legislature  of  Ohio  or  Michigan 
which  will  say  you  cannot  fish  in  these 
waters  at  a  time  and  the  only  timi^  when 
they  can  be  taken,  as  a  commodity,  in 
November. 

The  Secretary :  Isn't  it  generally  un- 
derstood that  when  fish  are  at  their  sea- 
son of  reproduction  they  are  not  fit  for 
food  ? 

Mr.  Keyes :  They  are  taken  and  con- 
sidered the  very  best.  You  take  the 
case  of  shad.  A  roe  shad  brings  just 
twice  the  price  of  a  buck  shad. 

The  Chairman:  Is  that  on  account  of 
the  roe? 

Mr.  Keyes :  They  want  to  get  the  eggs, 
I  suppose. 

The  Chairman:  That  is  what  1  sup- 
posed. 

Mr.  Keyes:  The  herring  spawns  alto- 
gether in  the  fall.  In  the  spring  they 
are  a  much  poorer  fish  than  in  the  fall. 
The  herring  taken  along  in  June  and  July 
are  a  much  better  fish,  on  the  Canada 
side ;  that  is  the  only  time  you  can 
catch  them,  at  that  time  of  year  they 
run  there 

Mr.  VVilmot:  For  i)rotection  they 
come  there.     (Laughter.) 

Mr.  Keyes :  They  catch  them  in  large 
quantities  at  that  time. 


The  Secretary:  They  do  not  even  get 
the  protection.  You  follow  them  over 
and  catch  them. 

Mr.  Keyes:  As  far  as  Canadian  waters 
are  concerned,  these  fish  are  taken  in 
large  (pumtities  in  .Inly  and  August. 

Dr.  Parker:  Returning  to  the  size  of 
tiie  mesh.  You  said  1  think  that  the 
llsli  seldom  gill  in  the  leaders,  or  heart. 
You  find  but  very  little  trouble  in  that. 

Mr.  Keyes :  Yes. 

Dr.  Parker:  When  do  they  gill  in  the 
pound? 

Mr.  Keyes:  They  do  not  gill  in  the 
pound  because  tlie  mesh  is  so  snuiU  they 
cannot  gill.  The  herring  is  the  worst  of 
all  fish  to  gill,  and  in  the  season  they 
will  just  line  a  jiound  right  around,  it 
will  be  jierfectly  white  ail  around,  in 
nearly  every  mesh  there  will  be  a  her- 
ring. 

Dr.  Parker :  They  stay  there  until  you 
come  to  haul  them? 

Mr.  Keyes:  Oh,  yes,  you  find  them 
there  before,  but  it  is  worse  when  they 
crowd  them.  As  you  crowd  them  they 
'vMi  to  jret  out. 

J)r.  Parker:  The  greatest  amount  of 
gilling  is  done  at  the  time  of  the  haul? 

Mr.  Keyes  :  Well,  before  you  get  the 
nets  pulled  out. 

Dr.  Parker:  The  greatest  trouble  is  .o 
get  them  out  of  there  and  save  them  for 
the  market. 

Mr.  Keyes :  The  greatest  trouble  is 
they  gill  all  the  time,  from  the  time  the 
fishing  is  commenced. 

Mr.  ( )sborn :  We  find  there  were  many 
tons  of  small  fish  taken  out  of  Sandusky 
Bay  and  sold  to  the  phosphate  factories 
at  65  cents  for  400  pounds. 

Mr.  Keyes :  There  is  nobody  recog- 
nizes that  fact  any  more  than  the  deal- 
ers in  Sandusky.  They  are  all  fisher- 
men and  they  are  only  too  ready  to  com- 
ply with  a  law  that  would  prevent  that, 
if  it  can  be  jiassed. 

Mr.  Osborn :  What  would  be  the  pen- 
alty? 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  would  put  it  so  big  that 
the  second  offense  would  be  seldom 
heard  of.  I  would  not  make  the  fine 
one  cent  less  than  $25  a  fish.     All  of  our 


84 


'•ii 


dealers  are  unanimoUHly  in  favor  of  j;et- 
ting  a  law  of  that  kind  tiirough  the 
l.e),MHlatnre.  That  (certainly  would  be  a 
very  Htronfi  Htep  in  the  rij^ht  direction, 
but  that  we  can  succeed  in  getting  a 
(tlose  season  for  tlie  month  of  November  1 
very  much  doubt,  or  that  you  would  even 
get  a  respectful  hearing  before  the  Fish 
and  Game  Commission  of  the  states,  be- 
cause of  the  men  interested. 

K.  W.  Gould,  Commissioner  Sea  and 
Shore  Fisheries  of  Maine:  Mr.  Chair- 
man and  Gentlemen  of  the  Conference: 
In  the  experience  of  the  Maine  Com- 
mission of  Hea  and  Shore  Fisheries 
there  can  only  be  one  correct  answer 
given  to  tliis  question,  if  the  end  in 
view  is  preservation  and  restoration 
of  our  fish.  A  broader  view  may  with 
propriety  be  taken  of  the  subject,  and 
include  all  edible  fish.  In  Maine  waters 
tile  white  fish  is  not  a  prominent  one; 
but  the  salmon  most  abound.  Nature 
has  insisted  upon  a  uniformity  of  laws 
governing  all  fish  life,  and  has  instituted 
a  most  wonderful  harmony  in  appor- 
tioning to  each  kind  of  fish  its  peculiar 
characteristics,  habits,  localities,  time 
for  rei)roducing  its  kind,  etc.,  so  that 
when  nature  establishes  a  season  dur- 
ing which  one  species  ought  to  be  fully 
protected,  another  of. somewhat  differ- 
ent habits  is  in  its  prime  condition,  thus 
wisely  ordaining  such  a  condition  of 
affairs  as  will  keep  up  throughout  the 
entire  year  the  fish  food  supply  of  the 
people.  To  assist  nature  in  keeping  up 
the  supply  the  intelligence  of  man 
comes  in  as  1  auxiliary,  utilizing  the 
forces  and  existing  conditions  of  nature 
to  artificially  jiropagate  certain  fish  to 
replenish  the  waters,  and  this,  to  a  cer- 
tain extent,  has  succeeded  very  nicely, 
but  man  has  never  been  able  to  approxi- 
mate nature  in  this  work,  and  of  neces- 
sity, while  acting  as  assistant,  must  de- 
vise some  different  plan  to  further  in- 
crease the  young  fish. 

The  fish  and  game  of  the  American 
continent  at  present  under  the  control 
of  each  individual  state,  have  been  held 
by  the  scate  governments  as  a  sacred 
trust   for   tile  people  from  time  imme- 


morial; and  now  the  thinking  portion 
of  the  people  are  slowly  awakening  to 
the  fact  that  the  danger  line  of  extinc;- 
tion  has  l)een  passed  in  some  instances, 
and  being  rapidly  approached  in  nearly 
all  others.  Thciy  view  with  great  appre- 
hension the  slaughter  of  the  finny  tribes 
going  on,  and  the  consequent  alarming 
diminution  in  their  numbers,  while  with 
the  convening  of  our  different  legisla- 
tures, petitions  come  pouring  in  from 
all  sections  asking  special  laws  to  be  en- 
acted for  the  protection  from  the  poacher 
or  pot  fisherman  certain  local  or  private 
lands ;  also  praying  for  a  more  rigid  en- 
forcement of  the  existing  laws  rei^ulat- 
ing  the  taking  of  fish  and  game. 

The  question  might  with  propriety  be 
asked  to  "  ivliut  cuunr  is  a»siy)ied  thin  yrcdt 
depeh'tioii  of  our  Jixheriiiif" 

To  those  who  have  made  a  study  of 
fish  life  and  its  underlying  conditions 
the  answer  is  a  very  simple  and  exceed- 
ingly i)lain  one.  Simply  exhaustive  fish- 
ing and  at  improper  seasons,  liut  here 
iu  answering  the  <iuestion  enters  a  dis- 
turbing element,  the  intensely  interested 
wealthy  parties  who,  through  their  en- 
gines of  destruction,  have  enriched  them- 
seives  at  the  expense  of  the  people,  and 
who  now  are  aware  that  the  laity 
are  becoming  educated  up  to  what  is 
theirs  by  right,  and  that  at  no  far  dis- 
tant day  their  revenue  from  this  source 
will  be  curtailed.  These  men  appear  in 
conjunction  with  the  legislatures,  and 
sending  their  most  suasive  members, 
answer  this  question,  without  excep- 
tion i)refacing  their  remarks  by  first 
giving  a  glowing  account  of  the  immense 
industry  they  represent,  the  large  num- 
ber of  men  they  employ,  and  the  large 
amount  of  general  good  that  is  the  result 
of*  their  operations.  Then  is  paraded 
their  intimate  knowledge  of  fish  life  and 
the  natural  conditions  which  tend  to  the 
perpetuation  of  the  species,  and  in  the 
majority  of  cases,  if  the  time  of  the  com- 
mittee or  meeting  where  this  question 
comes  up  is  limited,  they  enter  exhaust" 
ively  into  the  general  subject,  and  while 
arranging  themselves  to  all  appearance 
on   the  side  of   intelligent    restriction. 


L.'  I 

pa 


j)orti(jii 

'iiinp  to 

cxtinc- 

stanct's, 

Hourly 

t  ai)pre- 

»y  tribes 
arming 

lile  witli 
Ic'gi.slu- 

in   from 

o  lie  en- 
loacJier 
private 
;rid  »^n- 

re' nlat- 


36 


njjpoHe  Htrtuiuoufily  any  n-strictive  ineas- 
iin-s  tliat  would  be  ('fTcctivc,  contiiiinK 
tliemselves  to  Kome  minor  restriction, 
sncii  an  tli(>  liberation  of  tisli  below  a 
;;;iven  wcif^'bt  or  size,  or  mesb  of  net,  by 
tills  means  liopiiig  to  throw  the  l)nr(len 
of  ex])ense  on  the  fishermen  and  the 
state  to  see  thes(!  measures  enforced  and 
to  eventually  create  a  prejudice  against 
restriction  by  reason  of  these  wardships. 
Should  this  fail  them,  then  they,  as  a 
last  resort,  earnestly  advocate  investiga- 
tion at  the  expense  of  the  state  and  ex- 
periments as  to  the  better  means  of  i)ro- 
tection. 

These,  gentlemen,  without  attempting 
to  weary  you,  are  a  few  of  the  subter- 
fuges employed  by  these  interests. 

The  more  intelligent  fishermen  prompt- 
ly range  themselves  on  the  side  of  pro- 
tection and  preservation,  foreseeing  that 
without  some  means  being  em])loyed  to 
prevent  this  wanton  destruction  the 
liusiness  will  not  survive  itself. 

From  these  facts  among  many  others, 
and  from  a  practical  and  substantial 
benefit  arising  from  it,  the  Conmiission 
of  Sea  and  Shore  Fisheries  of  Maine  em- 
phatically advocates  protection  for  all 
edible  fish  during  their  season  for  spawn- 
ing, and  in  the  absence  of  an  intimate 
knowledg(^  of  the  requirements,  to  pro- 
tect any  tish  in  a  given  instance,  would 
recommend  such  restrictive  legislation 
on  that  subject  as  will  leave  no  doubt  as 
to  its  efficacy  until  such  investigation 
can  be  made  as  will  enable  intelligent 
suggestions  to  be  made  to  the  legisla- 
tures by  the  commissioners. 

The  Chairman:  Gentlemen,  it  is  get- 
tii.g  somewhat  late,  and  I  fancy  there  is 
v(>ry  much  more  to  be  said  upon  this 
matter.  It  does  seem  to  me  that  con- 
cessions must  be  made  by  the  fishermen 
as  well  as  by  the  people.  Because  of 
the  physical  characteristics  of  a  given 
water  the  spawning  beds  may  lie  in  one 
end  of  the  water  or  in  the  other,  and  it 
does  seem  to  me  as  though  some  sort  of 
an  opportunity  ought  to  be  given  the 
tish  to  spawn  when  they  run  on  these 
spawning  beds.    I   deem  it  unfortunate 


because  of  the  location  of  the  lishermeu, 
as  they  would  be  injured  more  in  l-ake 
Krie  on  the  western  reefs  than  in  the 
cast  end  of  the  lake,  because  there  are 
no  spawning  beds  there.  [f  we  are 
going  to  do  anything  except  extermin- 
ate the  fish  entirely,  we  must  come  to 
some  .sort  of  an  understandihg,  not  i)re- 
judicing  the  rights  of  one  party  nor  of 
the  other,  and  I  would  suggest  the  pif)- 
priety  of  not  attempting  by  the  sugges- 
tion to  in  any  way  shut  off"  debate,  be- 
cause we  want  to  ccmsider  this  subject 
fairly  and  cannidly.  I  would  suggest 
the  appointment  of  a  committee  to  con- 
fer up(m  this  matter  and  to  report  at  to- 
morrow's meeting. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  I  hardly  think  the  end 
will  be  obtained  so  thoroughly  in  that 
way  as  by  an  open  discussion.  The  rea- 
son wliy  I  say  tliat  is  this,  that  some  of 
us  may  not  be  able  to  remain  during 
the  continuance  of  your  session,  and  as 
this  is  of  vital  importanee  to  Canada 
and  the  T'nited  States,  1  think  an  open 
discussion  of  the  matter  will  be  much 
l)etter  than  to  leave  it  to  a  committee 
to  bring  in  a  certain  report.  The  ol»ject 
of  ibis  meeting,  I  understand,  is  to 
take  up  the  matter  as  a  whole.  If  the 
views  are  entertained  which  our  friend, 
Mr.  Keyes,  has  expressed,  it  will  be  use- 
less for  us  to  remain  here,  of  course,  but 
as  J  understand  the  matter,  the  meeting 
is  for  the  purpose  of  preserving  and  hus- 
banding the  fisheries  of  the  country. 
I  think  an  open  discussion  of  the  mat- 
ter will  be  well,  and  much  better  than 
leaving  it  to  a  committee  to  make  a  re- 
port upon.  This  meeting  has  been 
called  for  the  purpose  of  discussing  the 
merits  of  the  preservation  of  the  fisher- 
ies of  the  lakes  in  this  country  and  in 
Canjida.  We  have  a  close  season  on  our 
siile  of  the  water.  The  gentleman  who 
has  just  sat  <lown  (Mr.  Keyes)  says  that 
if  you  have  a  close  season  for  the  month 
of  November  you  might  just  as  well 
close  up  his  business.  In  Lake  Winni- 
peg, where  they  liave  the  best  wiiite 
fishing  in  the  world,  they  never  fish  be- 
yond the  ir)th  of  October;  they  never 
desire  to  flsh.    They  say  their  best  fish- 


*r 


1 


iiig  is  before  tliat,  whereiiH  in  Luke  Erie, 
this  geiitleinaii  tellw  hh,  tliey  could  not 
MhIi  at  all  if  they  did  not  HhIi  in  the 
month  of  Novemhcr.  I  take  that  as  an 
incorrect  Htatenient.  I  think  it  would 
he  niuoh  better  to  have  an  o|)cn  diH<'Us- 
nion. 

Mr.  llani|)to>'..  I  think  the  gentleman 
is  entirely  right.  But  while  we  all  con- 
cede the  necewHity  of  an  open  discussion, 
ve  must  recognize  this  fact,  that  if  we 
have  nf)thing  but  discus.sion,  we  will 
not  accomplish  anything.  As  I  under- 
stand, the  object  of  the  meeting  is  to 
take  some  steps  that  will  result  in  some- 
thing beneficial.  The  idea  of  the  re])re- 
sentative  from  tne  Dominion  (Mr.  Wil- 
niot)  is  to  preserve  the  lish  not  only  for 
the  people,  but  for  the  fishermen  of  the 
country.  I  believe  we  are  all  united  in 
regard  to  this,  and  tlie  only  difiiculty  is 
a  disagreement  as  to  the  manner  of 
doing  it. 

Mr.  Keyes:  J^et  me  say  this  one  word, 
that  Mr.  Wihnot  entirely  misunder- 
stands me  if  he  thinks  for  a  moment  that 
1  would  stand  on  this  floor  and  advocate 
the  destruction  of  the  lish  of  Lake  Erie 
•>r  any  otiier,  except  in  the  catching  of 
the  tisli,  which  has  always  been  consid- 
ered a  legitinate  i)usiness,  and  the 
catching  of  them  of  course  destroys 
them. 

The  Chairman:  lam  inclined  to  think 
that  we  ought  to  have  plenty  of  time 
for  the  discussion  of  this  subject,  and  I 
think  the  best  way  is  to  have  an  even- 
ing session. 

Mr.  Post:  I  anr  myself  very  much  in 
favor  of  a  committee,  and  I  think  we  are 
entitled  to  the  appointment  of  a  com- 
mittee after  further  discussion.  1  would 
like  to  inquire  if  it  is  the  serse  of  the 
Conference  that  we  have  an  evening 
session?  I  will  make  that  motion,  that 
we  do  have  an  evening  session,  com- 
mencing at  eight  o'clock. 

The  motion  was  carried  and  the  con- 
ference took  a  recess  until  8  p.  m. 


Evening  Session, 

Dec.  20,  1892,  8  p.  m. 
The  Chairman :  The  conference  will 


jdea-se  come  to  order.  When  the  con- 
ference took  its  recess  it  ha<l  under  con- 
sideration toj)ic  No.  2,  and  that  topic  is 
still  open  for  iliscussion. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  Before  the  discussion 
o|)('ns,  while  1  have  not  the  slightest 
i(K'a  of  restricting  anyl)ody,  I  woulil  lik<' 
every  gentleman  to  have  the  courage  of 
his  convictions  and  say  just  what  lie 
thinks  on  this  subject.  I  would  ask 
that  the  conference  concur  in  this  mo- 
tion and  that  the  speeches  shall  n<tt  ex- 
ceed ten  minutes  in  length,  so  that 
every  one  will  have  a  chance  to  say 
something,  and  I  will  make  the  motion 
that  sjjeeches  be  limited  to  ten  minutes. 

This  motion  was  supported  and  car- 
ried. 

Mr.  Osborn:  What  would  be  the  ob- 
jection to  putting  both  of  these  topics 
on  for  discussion,  two  and  three  are 
largely  alike  as  to  a  good  many  parts, 
and  when  the  committee  of  which  we 
talked  is  ai»pointe<l,  it  could  cover  the 
two  topics  without  any  more  work  than 
covering  one. 

The  Chairman:  We  have  the  whole 
of  to-morrow  before  us  for  the  consider- 
ation of  these  other  topics,  and  we  do 
not  want  to  be  idle  all  the  <lay.  If  there 
is  any  gentleman  here  wlu)  desires  tt) 
express  himself  on  this  third  topic  by 
reason  of  being  called  away.  I  think  that 
the  conference  will  be  very  glad  to  listen 
to  him.  1  think  the  consideration  of 
topic  No.  15  had  better  be  postponed 
until  to-morrow  unless  some  sucdi  emer- 
gency as  that  arises.  I  understand,  Mr. 
Osborn,  that  you  expected  to  go  away 
to-morrow,  but  you  will  be  here  in  the 
morning  anyway.  The  chair  is  now 
rea<ly  to  listen  to  further  discussion. 
Dr.  Sweeny,  the  conference  has  not  had 
the  pleasure  of  hearing  from  j'ouon  this 
subject  and  I  presume  they  would  be 
delighted  to  hear  from  you. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  Mr.  Chairman — I  have 
listened  to  our  friend  Mr.  Keyes  on  this 
subject,  to  his  very  interesting  and  in- 
genious argument,  but  I  must  say  that 
he  has  not  conviniMKl  me,  and  T  am 
afraid  that  the  more  I  think  on  it  the 

less   I   am   likely    to   be    convinced.  /■ 

I* 


'a? 


87 


In  tin-  coii- 

|iii(Um'  con- 

»t  topic  i.« 

^lisciiHKion 

HliKlltl'Ht 

•oiilil  like 
•ourii^o  of 
wliat  Im' 
ould   iiKk 
tJ)iH  nio- 
iiot  cx- 
|i,  .so   tliat 
Ifc  to  say 
K'  motion 
niiiiiito.s. 
iind  car- 

('  tlu!  ob- 
^se  to|)icM 
1 1  live  a  IV 
iiy  partH, 
wliicii  v\u 
I'ovcr  tlic 
kork  than 

lie  wlioli' 
i'OiifiidiM- 
itl  wc  do 
If  thuiv 
IcsiiVH  to 

topic  l)y 
liink  that 
I  to  listen 
ration  of 
OHtponed 
i'h  enier- 
an(l,  Mr. 
go  away 
■e  in  tlie 

is  now 
icussion. 
not  had 
ion  this 
onld  he 

-I  have 
on  tJiis 
and  ill- 
ay  that 
\  I  Hni 
I  it  the 
iced.  Ik. 


know  from  the  experience  of  the  protec- 
tinii  given  by  ttie  ('anaiiian  autlutrities 
to  white  tisii  on  l-ake  .Sni)erior  tliat  it  is 
most  lienelicvnt.  Tiie  difl'erence  l)e- 
tween  our  tisliiiig  on  th(i  nortii  siiore  of 
bake  Superior,  in  our  waters  and  theirs, 
is  most  nuirke(b  When  you  ji;et  witiiin 
:'>■'>  or  :'■()  miles  of  the  ('anadian  Hne  tlie 
lishiii^,'  is  fairly  >.'ood,  and  when  you 
cross  it  it  is  excellent  (M)inpared  to  what 
it  isonourside.  The  greater  bulk  of  the 
white  tisli  are  obtained  from  I'ort  Arthur 
now,  and  the  fisiierinen  of  bake  Super- 
ior, on  the  north  shore,  are  so  well  satis- 
lied  that  it  is  the  riglit  thing  to  do  that 
they  have  expressetl  to  me  tlieir  willing- 
ness, without  any  solicitation  on  our 
part,  that  we  should  join  with  the  Can- 
adians in  having  the  same  close  season. 
They  say  if  there  is  such  a  law  so  tliat 
this  man  cannot  lish  and  that  man  can- 
not lis'ii,  we  are  willing  to  abiile  by  it, 
and  we  know  it  is  the  best  thing  that 
can  be  done.  The  difference  in  th(!  fish- 
ing now  from  what  it  was  a  few  years 
ago,  say  -0  or  '25  years  ago,  is  very 
marked.  AVe.used  to  get  white  fish  all 
the  way  uj*  to  Ouluth;  all  along  the 
-Minnesota  shore  and  the  Wisconsin 
shore,  it  was  all  good  white  fishing,  but 
now  there  are  scarcely  any  white  fish 
taken  until  you  get  towards  Bayfield. 
Very  few  are  taken  on  the  Wisconsin 
shore,  none  along  Minnesota  point;  and 
this  season,  for  the  lirst  time  in  fifteen 
years,  or  a  little  less  than  that,  the  fish- 
ermen are  beginning  to  make  pretty 
good  catches  along  the  north  shore  of 
small  white  fish,  which  they  attribute  to 
the  planting  of  fish  at  the  head  of  the 
lakt!.  It  is  their  opinion  that  a  close 
season  for  white  fish,  the  same  as  the 
Canadians  have,  from  November  1st  to 
December  Isi,  will  be  the  salvation  of 
the  fishing.  If  they  are  allowe<l  to  go  on 
as  they  have  been  the  fishing  will  be 
exterminated.  They  are  catching  some 
lish  of  our  plant  a  little  larger  than  her- 
ring and  about  the  size  of  herring,  anil 
from  that  to  tish  lo  and  H)  inches  long, 
and  they  are  so  well  satisfied  that  the 
jirotection  of  a  close  season  is  the  salva- 
tifin  of  the  fishing  that  thev  assured  me 


that  •'■  such  a  law  is  passed  they  would 
be  willing  and  glad  to  abide  by  it.  I 
feel  myself  that  that  is  th(>  right  thing  to 
do,  and  I  feel  that  our  i>osition  that  we 
should  protect  the  lish  in  the  spawning 
season  is  right.  Notwithstanding  the 
arguments  that  I  have  heard,  not  only 
to-day  but  for  years  past,  I  am  sure  that 
the  right  ])osition  is  to  maintain  a  close 
season. 

In  regard  to  our  lisheries  in  bake 
Superior,  1  think  our  legislature  will 
pass  such  a  law,  out  whether  that  is  tlu- 
wiser  thing  to  do  further  south,  should 
be  well  considered,  I  thin'.,  thoroughly 
conside  ed  l>>fore  a  concession  is  made 
to  abandoii  any  attempt  at  having  a 
close  season.  •»,  sei'ms  to  me  that  is  the 
surest  and  safest  way  to  conserve  all  lish- 
eries. 

Mr.  Keyes:  1  would  like  to  ask  the 
doctor  a  question  or  two  liefore  he  sits 
down.  Do  you,  in  yonr  ojiinion,  think 
that  a  close  season  in  November  will 
prevent  the  depletion  of  the  tish,  and 
if  you  do,  why  would  it  not  be  ))etter 
to  not  catch  them  at  all? 

Dr.  Sweeny:  Well,  I  think  if  the  fish 
ermen  are  satisfied  they  can  get   along 
without  catching  them,  that  tliat  would 
be  a  surer  way  yet  to  increase  the  sup- 
ply of  white  fish. 

Mr.  Keyes:  That  is  exactly  the  argu- 
ment I  make. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  I  know,  but  I  hardly 
tlnnk  that  is  a  fair  argument.  You 
know  just  as  »vell  as  I  do  that  if  pro- 
tected they  will  increase,  but  it  is  this 
destructive  and  persistent  fishing  in  sea- 
son and  out  of  season  that  has  ilestroyed 
the  abundance  of  fish. 

Mr.  Keyes:  That  is  true. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  Naturally  there  is  a  bal- 
ance established  in  all  animal  life,  either 
in  the  water  or  in  the  air,  and  if  a  dis- 
turbing element— and  in  this  case  the 
fisherman  is  the  disturbing  element — 
comes  in  you  will  destroy  that  balance, 
but  if  that  element  is  taken  away  the 
natural  Vialance  will  be  restored  and 
there  will  be  abundance. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  would  like  to  ask  the 
doctor  another  question.     Keferring  to 


38 


tlu'  rt'pHMliu'ti  III  nf  tlu-  Hsli,  wliatdittbr- 
inu-a  does  it  inako  wlietlier  you  catch  the 
rtHli  two  <hiys  before  the  law  pays  not  to, 
and  juHt  as  the  lisli  are  jjetting  ready  to 
si)awn,  or  catch  him  the  day  lie  lias 
bef^nn  to  spawn  ?  You  have  destroyed 
the  ejfgs  in  tlie  fish  just  tiie  same. 

Dr.  Swetuiy:  The  difi'erence  in  tiiis:  il' 

you  stop  catcliing  fish  there  will  be  all 

those  yon  do  not  catch  left  to  rejiroduce. 

Mr.  Keycs:  That  is  true. 

])r.  Sweeny:  That  is  just  the  <litter- 

ence— there  is  no  more  or  less. 

Mr.  Keyes:  There  is  not  any  differ- 
ence if  yon  (;atch  a  she  fisli ;  whether 
you  catch  it  in  season  or  out  youd  stroy 
just  so  much  rejirodnction. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  It  is  a  (juestion  of  num- 
bers, whether  you  want  part  of  the 
breeders  left  or  not. 

Mr.  Keyes:  Is  it  not  a  settle<l  fact 
that  catchinjj;  the  fish  in  the  spawninjr 
season  is  tlie  occasion  of  their  decTcsuse? 
Dr.  Sweeny  :  1  think,  undoubtedly,  it 
is.  If  you  kill  a  setting  hen  before  she 
hatches  her  eg^rs  you  destroy  the  brood. 
Mr.  Keyes:  Don't  you  kill  it  just  as 
much  if  you  kill  her  before  she  is  ready 
to  hatch.  If  you  catch  a  she  fish  with 
the  eggs  in  her  just  a  week  before  she  is 
ready  to  spawn,  or  before  the  close  sea- 
son commences,  yon  havi'  destroyed 
that  many  fish  just  the  same  as  if  you 
had  caught  her  when  she  is  ready  to 
sjtawn. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  The  diH'eience  is  that  in 
one  case  you  stop  killing  ami  in  the 
otlier  you  keep  on. 

Mr.  Keyes:  1  will  admit  tliat  argu- 
ment ,  certainly  if  you  stop  killing  there 
wfll  be  more  left. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  A  farmer  does  not  eat 
all  his  seed  wheat,  he  retains  enough 
for  the  next  crop,  and  that  is  simply 
what  we  are  asking  the  fishermen  to  do, 
to  save  enough  seed  to  insure  another 
crop.  If  you  kill  the  gravid  fish,  the 
race  isextinc't. 

Mr.  Keyes:  The  point  I  was  trying  lo 
make  is  this:  in  Lake  Superior  you  iish 
tlie  entire  season  from  the  opening  of 
navigation  to  the  close,  do  you  not  ? 
Dr.  Sweeny:  When  they  can. 


jNIr.  Keyes:  Not   when  they  can,  but 
they  do.    They  catch  just  as  many  Iish 
in  October  or  Sejiteinber  as  they  do  in 
November. 
Dr.  Sweeny :   Yes. 

Mr.  Keyes:  They  catch  them  in -Inly 
or  August  as  weli  as  in  November. 
Dr.  Sweeny:  They  catch  all  they  can. 
^[r.  Keyes:  In  no  other  lake  is  that 
so. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  I  understood  you  to  say 
they  lished  all  the  year  around  in  Laki' 
Erie. 

Mr.  Kej'es:  They  do  not  catch  white 
fish,  except  in  a  feA'  gill  nets,  in  Luke 
Erie. 

The  Chairman  :  I  think  the  ten  min- 
utes \r  up. 

Mr.  IVst:  Mr.  Chairman  and  (ieiitle- 
men — It  has  occurreil  to  me  that  ♦^.ere 
is  room  here  for  a  compromise.     Now 
of  course,  I  agree  with  a  good  deal  that 
.Mr.   Keyes   has  said    with    reference  to 
the  interest  of  the  fishermen.     .\  fish, 
of  course,  is  good  for  nothing  until  h"'  '.:• 
caught,  and  the  purpose  of  raising  fish 
is  to  raise  them   for  food.     The  matter 
of  limitation  should  be  such  a  iea.son- 
able  limitation  that  it   will    insure  the 
natural   increase  of  the  fish  as  well  as 
l)rotect  the  work  of  artificial   propaga- 
tion.    Mr.  Keves  has  .said,  and  I  believe 
ii  i.':  a  fact,  that  the  run  of  herring  pre- 
cedes a  little  the  run  of  whiie  fish  or  the 
heaviest  run  of  white  fish,  and  it  occurs 
to  me  tlu'.t  if  a  comprourse  were  made 
upon  a  close  season  and  the  fishing  dur- 
ing the  sjiiwning  season  was  not  entire- 
ly stopped  it  might  be  best.     Suppose 
the  close  season  commenced  on  the  ir,th 
of  November  instead  of  the   1st.    The 
heavy  run  of  the  herring  is  by  that  time 
|iiactically  over,  so  that  it  would  not  in- 
terfere  with    the    herring    fishing,  and 
would  result  in  gr<uit  benefit  to  the  white 
fish. 

I  have  no  doubt  it  is  true  that  the 
conditions  nixm  the  upper  en  I  of  Lake 
Krie  are  somewhat  diflerent  from  what 
they  arc  on  Lake  Si  ptrior.  Nature  af- 
fords a  large  protection  to  spawning  Iish 
in  Lakt'  Superior.  The  storms  tir  i 
prevail  there  hoist   the  pound  nets  out 


39 


V  can,  but 
many  ii.sli 
'»i?y  do  in 


111  in  .July 
il)(^r. 

<li('y  can. 
iv  is  tliat 

f»ii  to  say 
in   Lake 

fli  wliiti' 
in  Lake 

ten  niin- 

(u'ntlc- 
at  f\,t'rv 
'•     Xow 
leal  that 
rence  to 

A  flsli, 

itil   ),<•  i;; 

in},'  M.sli 
\  inattt'i- 
reason - 
iurc  tin> 
well  as 
Topat^a- 
liclievr 
ng  pri'- 
i  ortlu' 

Ol•('Ur^S 

e  made 
iigdur- 
entire- 
ippose 
le  ir,tli 
.    Thu 
it  time 
lot  in- 
r,  and 
whitt' 

it  the 

Lake 
wliat 
rv  Hl- 
k'  MnIi 

til'  . 
"  out 


before  the  spawning  season  is  over,  and 
I  know  it  is  a  fact  and  haw  bet'u  so  for 
many  years  there,  that  it  is  very  ditli- 
cult  for  the  people  engaged  in  white  fish 
hatching  to  get  eggs  enough  there  on 
account  of  the  storms.  Jtoctuirsto  me 
that  if  a  close  season  in  such  waters  as 
l.ake  Michigan,  and  possibly  others  of 
thesani;'  character,  were  divided  to  make 
a  compromise^  between  the  lishermen 
and  tlie  people  on  this  subject,  we  would 
get  something  that  both  parties  could 
act  under,  and  that  would  be  a  com- 
promise that  would  perliajts  get  the  sup- 
port of  the  lishermen. 

J  appreciate  what  probably  wi;  all  do, 
th'.'.t  ordinarily  it  is  best  to  get  some- 
thing which  can  be  enforced  than  to  get 
an  ideal  law  which  is  never  enforced. 
It  will  be  very  tlitlicult,  as  Mr.  Keyes 
has  said,  to  j)a6s  any  law  in  any  ofthe.se 
legislatures  of  the  states  that  border  on 
these  great  lakes  wliere  the  lishing  in- 
dustry is  as  large  as  it  is,  that  would  not 
be  extremely  detrimental  to  their  in- 
terest. If  you  uinlertake  to  do  more 
than  you  can  accomplish,  you  are  wast- 
ing your  efforts.  Now,  it  is  very  desir- 
able, particularly  lor  us  in  Michigan, 
and  I  jiresume  it  is  so  with  the  other 
states  where  large  fishing  industries  ob- 
tain, to  get  an  enforcement  of  a  protec- 
tive law  that  will  have  the  support  of 
the  better  class  of  lishermen.  Now,  it 
seems  to  inc  it  is  better  to  attain  to 
something  which  shall  answer  the  pur- 
pose to  a  limited  extent  than  to  aim  to 
get  an  ideal  law  which  will  not  have 
the  support  of  public  opinion  and  of 
such  jiublic  opinion  as  the  Hsher- 
men  tiiemselvcs  will  be  able  to  aid  in 
forming,  and  it  has  occurred  to  me  that 
possibly  a  close  seasop  which  will  ex- 
tend from  the  l.-jth  of  N(»venibor  on, 
would  be  a  reasonable  protection,  oven 
in  Lake  Erie,  to  the  white  tish,and  would 
not  interfere  seriously  with  the  lu'rriug 
lishing. 

The  other  suggestions  that  were  made 
by  Mr.  Keyes  with  retVrence  to  a  law 
which  will  prohibit  the  taking  or  having 
in  possession  or  transporting,  or  of 
dealers  liolvling  for  sale  tish  beneath  a 


given  size,  which  shall  be  agreed  upon— 
and  I  think  we  shall  have  some  difficulty 
even  in  agreeing  ujion  that — will  be  a 
gn>at  aid  in  obtaining  a  law  which  will 
meet  the  sujiport  of  the  lishermen. 
There  is  no  doubt  in  my  mind  from  the 
experienie  I  have  had  with  the  better 
(;lass  of  lishermen  and  those  whose  sup- 
port would  be  more  valuable,  that  they 
are  going  to  .see  this  matter  somewhat 
in  the  light  we  look  at  it,  and  they  ap- 
preciate the  necessity  for  something  be- 
ing done  in  the  way  of  iirevention  of 
ilestructive  lishing.  jMany  of  the  other 
suggestions  which  Mr.  Keyvs  made 
might  meel  approbation — the  limit  to 
the  extent  from  the  shore  that  lishing 
should  be  carried  on,  leaving  an  open 
passageway  so  that  the  fish  could  f,et  to 
their  spawning  grounds,  but  it  seems  to 
me  that  something  in  the  nature  of  a 
compromise  on  this  basis  might,  per- 
haps, be  reached  by  a  conference  ccmi- 
mittee. 

rUr,  Bowman  :  Mr.  Chairman  and  Gen- 
tlemen—The represent  '.tives of  the>State 
of  New  York  are,  perhaps,  not  largely  in- 
terested in  this  (juestion.  Our  lake  is 
separated  from  your  lakes  by  a  border 
which  makes  it  very  dill'erent.  We  are 
propagating  white  lisli  now  in  our  state 
and  will  hatch  fully  l.j,()00,(XM)  this  year, 
but  as  a  general  proposition  in  lisli  iind 
game!— and  you  see  it  illustrated  i)erhaps 
lietter  in  game  than  you  do  in  fish — 
unless  there  is  a  close  season,  and  unless 
they  are  protecteil  in  that  close  and 
breeding  season,  they  aie  soon  entirely 
destroyed,  I  do  not  care  what  it  is. 
There  is  no  artificial  projiagation  of 
game,  and  the  only  thing  that  is  left  for 
the  game  in  this  jiart  of  the  country  to- 
day is  simply  to  protect  them  in  the 
breeding  seascn.  It  si-ems  to  me  as 
though  that  general  proposition  must 
be  true  in  everything,  must  be  so  with 
lish  as  much  as  it  is  with  game  or  any- 
thing of  the  animal  kin<l,  I  care  not 
what.  !      '. 

Now,  it  seems  to  me,  as  has  been  sug- 
gested, that  we  should  have  some  protec- 
tion. I  don't  know  whether  the  gentle- 
men from  the  State  of  Ohio  or  the  lish- 


40 


W 


\ 
«' 


ennen  would  be  willing  to  see  the  entire 
business  destroyed.  If  they  cannot  take 
them  in  November  they  cannot  take 
them  at  all  they  say,  but  1  believe  that 
the  fish  should  be  protected  and  that 
they  would  increase  and  the  Hshermen 
wouM  take  more  if  they  were.  1  think 
it  is  for  their  interest  certainly  as  much 
as  it  is  for  anybody's  to  do  that  which 
will  produce  the  most  fish  and  give  them 
the  greatest  gain.  That  is  the  object 
we  all  want  to  accomplish.  Now,  if  it  is 
necessary,  we  should  make  some  com- 
promise, for  it  seems  to  me  very  essen- 
tial that  there  should  l)e  something  done 
to  allow  these  fish  to  reach  their  spawn- 
ing grounds. 

Our  Canadian  friend  says,  I  believe, 
they  reproduce  themselves  and  that  ar- 
tificial propagation  is  rather  an  aid  than 
the  first  cause,  and  it  seems  to  me  as 
though  we  ought  to  reach  some  com- 
promise  which  will  enable  thes'^  Psh  ■ 
reach  the  spawning  grounds  and  cast 
their  spawn  before  being  taken. 

We  have  the  same  ditiiculty  in  the 
Hudson  River.  The  shad  run  up  the 
Hudson  River  to  spawn,  they  are  there 
at  no  other  .-eason,  we  ge*  them  in  the 
spring.  We  have  this  same  ditiiculty 
with  the  lishermer,,  and  we  had  a  fight 
of  one  or  two  years  until  we  could  get 
one  or  two  days  of  open  season  whtreby 
the  shad  could  reach  the  fresh  water  at 
the  upper  i)art  of  the  Hudson  whi're  we 
could  get  enough  ripe  shad  to  take  th.e 
spawn  from.  We  contended  for  a  com- 
promise between  the  fishermen  and  the 
people,  and  if  they  had  not  seen  the 
necessity  of  allowing  the  ripe  fish  to  get 
from  the  sea  to  the  fresh  water  when 
they  were  ready  to  spawn,  we  would  not 
have  had  any  We  used  to  catch  them 
at  Troy  hut  now  you  see  very  few  as  high 
as  Albany.  Our  stations  are  all  locat- 
ed below  Albany  and  we  have  had  great 
ditiiculty  until  we  had  a  day  or  twoojten. 
We  thought  it  was  not  the  proi)er  thing 
for  lisheru'cn  to  fish  on  Sunday,  so  we 
went  to  tlie  Legislature  on  that  ground, 
putting  it  on  a  moral  ground  that  the  Hsh  • 
should  have  Sumlay,  as  the  fishermen 
needed  it,  and  so  they  stop  fishing  every 


Saturday  night  at  12  o'clock  until  Sun- 
day night  at  12  o'clock,  and  that  gives 
the  fish  an  opportunity  to  go  up  and  get 
on  the  spawning  ground  where  they  are 
ready  'o  spawn. 

Take  the  Connecticut  Rivei ;  you  hard- 
ly see  a  Connecticut  shad  in  the  market. 
They  have  been  entirely  fished  out  an<l 
they  have  never  been  reproduced.  That 
river  runs  through  two  or  three  differ- 
ent states  and  one  state  is  selfish  about 
it  and  says,  "  I  will  not  pay  the  expenses 
of  a  hatchery  for  the  benefit  of  some 
other  state,"  and  you  hardly  hear  of  a 
Co.'inecticut  shad  in  the  market.  It 
may  be  from  some  other  cause  and  soi  3 
other  reason,  bnt  these  facts  are  true, 
and  it  seems  to  me  that  it  is  to  the  in- 
terest of  fishermen  as  well  as  for  every- 
body, that  we  siiould  have  some  kind  of 
a  close  season,  and  give  these  fish  an  oj)- 
l)ortunity  to  cast  their  spawn  when  they 
are  ready  to  do  it.  Tliey  will  not  cast 
it  at  any  other  season ;  they  will  spawn 
in  the  fall  when  they  are  ripe,  and  at 
that  time  it  seems  to  me  they  should 
certainly  have  a  part  of  the  si>awning 
season,  and  the  more  the  better,  to  get 
onto  the  spawning  ground  and  cast  their 
spawn  and  reproduce  their  kind. 

I  am  very  glad  to  see  the  fishermen 
take  an  interest  in  this  matter.  I  am 
very  glad  for  the  suggestions  made  of 
throwing  the  young  fish  back,  I  think  it 
will  be  of  great  benefit  and  I  think  it 
will  increase  the  supply  very  much.  It 
is  r  .  ly  judicious  thing  also  to  leave 
tliv  ■  I  '1 ',el  open  so  that  they  can  get 
I  p  .  '  3  pawning  ground  as  suggest- 
ed, an.'i  f  e  can  reach  some  compromise 
— and  thejL;  seems  to  r)e  but  very  little 
difiiculty  excei)t  with  the  gentlemen 
from  Ohio— that  will  be  satisfactory  to 
them  and  give  th«:ae  fish  some  oppor- 
tunity to  cast  tneir  spawn  upon  their 
spawning  grounds,  I  believe  in  the  end 
it  will  be  a  great  deal  better  for  the  fish- 
ermen. Of  course  the  i>eople  cannot  get 
these  fish  unless  they  are  caught,  but 
whut  is  for  the  interest  of  the  people  is 
for  the  interest  of  the  fishermen.  We 
are  all  agreed  upon  one  thing,  that  we 
should  hatch  and  protect  and  increase  the 


■\ 


\ 


suj 
gre 
wil 
sel 
we 
an 
tal 


^ 


41 


supply  of  fish  as  much  as  possible,  the 
greater  the  quantity  the  better  everybody 
will  be  pleased  and  we  must  not  all  be  too 
selfish,  we  must  not  want  it  all  ourselves, 
we  should  be  willing  to  give  and  take, 
and  if  we  cannot  get  a  whole  loaf  let  us 
take  a  half  loaf,  and  let  us  make  a  com- 
promise between  the  fishermen  and  the 
people  as  has  been  suggested,  say  tlie 
ir)th  of  November,  and  to  sto])  fishing 
after  that.  It  seems  to  me  that  after 
discussing  this  matter  properly  we  can 
reach  a  compromise  that  would  be  satis- 
factory and  just  to  all  concerned,  and 
we  I'ould  pass  laws  in  these  diflerent 
states  that  would  be  uniform,  and  tiiat 
thereafter  you  will  certainly  have  a 
much  better  supply  of  fish  than  hereto- 
fore. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  If  I  am  permitteil  to 
read  a  letter  I  would  like  to;  it  is  in  re- 
sponse to  some  imiuiries  from  our  vice- 
president. 

The  President:  I  think  you  bave  the 
consent  of  the  conference. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  There  are  some  points  in 
this  that  may  be  of  interest.  It  is  from 
Mr.  Turner,  a  man  largely  interested  in 
the  lisli  trade.     He  says: 

"You  ask  a  few  points  on  the  white 
fish  industry.  We  find  that  the  sujjply 
is  not  equal  to  the  demand,  nor  are  there 
as  many  fish  by  half  as  tbere  u.-seil  to  be 
a  few  years  ago.  I  am  not  conversant 
with  all  the  points  on  Lake  Superior,  but 
at  Ashlmd,  HayfieM  and  Dulutli  and 
vicinity  it  is  immediately  under  my 
management.  Would  say  Ashland  Hay 
may  be  called  the  wliite  fish  breeding 
ground,  also  at  the  end  of  Lake  Super- 
ior, near  Duluth,  on  the  soutii  shore 
and  along  Minnesota  Point  net  fishing 
should  be  prohibited,  as  they  use  too 
small  meshes  an<l  catch  a  great  many 
small  white  fish  before  they  are  of  mar- 
ketable size,  and  by  this  destruction  pn-- 
vent  them  from  maturing.  AVould  also 
suggest  that  Minnesota  I'oint  and  the 
Wisconsin  side  of  Lake  Superior,  near 
Duluth,  and  the  whole  of  .\shland  Ray 
l)e  protected  liy  a  three-mile  limit,  and 
no  nets  should  be  set  within  three  miles 
from  the  above  shores,  on  the  breed- 


ing grounds  of  the  white  fish  in  that 
vicinity. 

We  find  that  fishing  has  not  been  pro- 
fitable for  the  last  three  or  four  years 
"(he  might  have  said  ten)"  within  30 
miles  of  Duluth.  The  growth  of  the 
cities  of  Superior  and  Duluth  may  possi- 
bly impregnate  the  water,  and  with  the 
small  mesh  nets  that  have  been  hereto- 
fore used  be  tlu;  cause  of  this  great  scar- 
city. I  regret  very  much  not  being  able 
to  be  present,  but  Mr.  Timberlake  will 
explain  that  it  is  a  physical  impossibil- 
ity for  me  to  be  then'.  We  sincerely 
trust  that  in  your  deliberations  some- 
thing may  be  accomplished  for  the  pro- 
tection of  this  great  industry." 

I  will  state  that  Mr.  Turner  is  very 
sick  and  has  been  for  some  time,  or  he 
would  have  been  at  this  meeting. 

The  President:  I  will  ask  the  Secre- 
tary to  read  a  jtortion  of  tlie  letter  of  Mr. 
Mr.  Booth,  who  is  largely  interested  in 
the  fishing  business,  upon  this  point 
now  under  consideration. 

The  Secretary:  Mr.  Booth  says: 

"  In  relerence  to  the  small  meshes  of  pound 
nets  and  k'H  nets,  which  I  think  do  more  to  des- 
troy the  fishing  interest  of  the  lakes  than  any- 
thing else,  I  do  hope  we  may  profit  by  the  better 
observance  of  the  laws  in  '•eference  to  the  pro<- 
tection  of  fish  and  game  enacted  in  Canada,  or 
rather  the  enforcement  of  it.  I  should  very 
much  like  to  see  a  more  cordial  feeling  existing 
between  our  country  and  Canada  in  reference  to 
a  uniformity  of  fish  laws,  and  trusi  that  from 
your  deliberations  much  good  may  result. 
I  am  sincerely  yours, 

A.  BOOTH, 
President  of  the  A.  Booth  Packing  Co." 

The  President:  Gentlemen,  we  havf; 
with  us  to-night  a  man  who  was  con- 
nected for  a  number  of  years  with  the 
^Michigan  Fish  Commission  and  who  was 
instrumental  in  drafting  the  original  law 
tiiaf  set  some  restraint  upon  fishing. 
He  gave  the  subject  a  very  great  <leal  of 
attention,  and  I  know  that  lie  has  the 
matter  now  just  as  closely  at  heart  as  he 
had  at  the  time  he  was  on  the  commis- 
sion. I  wouM  ask  Mr.  John  H.  Bissell 
to  give  us  an  expression  of  his  views 
upon  this  matter. 

Mr.  Bissell:  Mr.  Chairman  and  Gen- 
tlemen -Although  for  two  years  out  of 


42 


the  harness,  I  have  not  lost  any  of  my 
interest  in  the  subject  of  the  propaga- 
tion and  protection  of  Qsii  and  the  exten- 
sion of  the  fisheries.  I  listened  the  short 
time  I  was  in  this  afternoon  with  a  great 
deal  of  interest  to  what  >va8  beiny  said 
about  Lake  Erie.  My  own  studies  on 
this  subject  led  me  a  good  while  ago  to 
the  conclusion  that  the  first  thing  we 
needed  was  a  way  of  enforcing  such  laws 
as  we  could  get,  and  in  connection  with 
the  enforcement  of  the  laws  to  give  a 
careful  study  to  the  condition  of  the  fish- 
eries in  the  different  waters  of  the  great 
lakes. 

Something  has  been  said  this  evening 
al)out  a  uniformity  of  laws.  It  is  possi- 
ble you  may  get  uniform  laws  for  Ohio, 
Michigan,  Wisconsin  and  Minnesota,  but 
I  doubt  if  the  uniformity  could  go  very 
far.  The  conditions  of  fishing  in  the 
different  seasons  in  the  different  waters 
are  different.  Now,  what  the  gentle- 
man from  Ohio  said  about  the  fisheries 
at  the  upper  end  ©f  Lake  Eri-  lemon- 
strated  to  me  that  it  would  be  unfair  for 
the  fishermen  to  make  the  same  regula- 
tions for  the  fishing  east  of  Cleveland 
that  are  established  for  the  fishing  in  the 
west  end  of  the  lake — the  upper  end  of 
the  lake— if  all  fisherman  are  to  have 
anything  like  a  fair  chance  at  the  fish- 
ing. 

While  some  of  us  know  a  good  deal 
perhaps  about  fishing  in  certain  locali- 
ties, I  am  quite  satisfied  that  none  of  us 
know  enough  about  tl :e  varying  condi- 
tions in  all  the  waters  of  the  great  lakes 
to  be  able  to  sit  d  jwn  at  a  table  and  pre- 
pare what  we  would  be  satisfied  was  a 
satisfactory  and  just  law,  say,  with  ref- 
erence to  the  sizes  of  the  meshes  of  the 
nets,  a  law  with  reference  to  the  time 
when  fishing  should  be  permitted,  and 
possibly  with  reference  to  the  size  of  the 
fish.  With  reference  to  the  size  of  the 
fish  probably  we  could  get  uniformity 
bettor  than  in  any  other  one  particular. 
The  state  should  pa.ss  such  laws  as  they 
can  get,  not  trying  to  get,  as  Mr.  Post  has 
said,  ideal  laws.  Of  course  you  cannot 
get  perfect  laws  all  in  a  hurry.  If  you 
i^ould  get  a  law  that  would  regulate  the 


size  of  the  fish  and  at  the  same  time  a 
law  that  would  regulate  the  meshes  of 
the  nets,  with  discretionary  powers 
lodged  in  some  intelligent  officer,  who 
would  be  under  proper  supervision,  I 
think  vou  would  get  the  best  results. 

But  before  you  could  get  a  law  that 
any  one  of  us  would  be  satisfied  with, 
there  must  be  a  study  of  the  conditions 
of  the  fisheries  in  the  different  waters. 
Takt-  such  a  state  as  Michigan.  A  law 
that  would  be  answerable  for  our  Mon- 
roe coast  of  Lake  Erie,  I  am  satisfied 
would  be  entirely  unsuited  to  the  condi- 
tions about  the  Straits  of  Mackinaw  and 
the  south  shore  of  Lake  Superior.  In 
order  to  get  that  information,  officers 
who  are  enforcing  laws  for  the  states 
ought  to  be  furnished  with  some  means 
of  acquiring  and  preserving  useful  and 
necessary  knowledge  on  that  subject. 
It  is  a  pretty  broad  suV)ject,  and  I  am 
conscious  that  T  am  only  touching  on 
fragments  of  it  here  and  there.  It  is  a 
matter  that  I  spent  a  good  many  winter 
evenings  on  when  it  was  my  duty  to  be 
studying  such  matters,  and  T  can  only, 
in  a  very  fragmentary  way,  make  sug- 
gestions here  this  evening.  One  of  the 
most  important  that  I  can  mak;^  is  that 
each  of  the  states  should  try  to  get  war- 
dens or  other  officers,  it  makes  no  dif- 
ference what  you  call  them,  who  would 
have  some  sort  of  discretion  in  permit- 
ting the  use  of  nets  of  a  small  mesh  at  a 
time  when  it  would  not  result  in  the 
killing  of  white  fish.  Take,  for  instance, 
the  upper  end  of  Lake  Erie.  If  fishing 
is  permitted  in  November  in  those  wat- 
ers, it  would  destroy  no  small  white 
fish,  it  would  hurt  no  small  white  fish  ; 
there  would  be  no  small  white  fish  there 
to  hurt.  The  thing  that  could  possibly 
be  accomplished  is  first  to  get  the  offi- 
cers to  enforce  such  laws  as  we  have ; 
second,  to  have  those  officers  furnished 
by  the  state  with  means  to  acquire  the 
knowledge  that  is  necessary  for  the  es- 
tablishment of  just,  fair  and  reasonable 
regulations. 

I  should  like  to  go  over  the  subject  of 
the  regulations  of  the  fisheries  by  way 
of  licensing.      I    became  satisfied   from 


48 


my  examination  of  the  subject  that  that 
is  one  of  tlie  things  that  ought  to  be 
kept  in  view  all  the  tine.  The  time 
has  got  to  come  when  the  industry  of 
fishing  will  ^"  "-.sensed,  and  the  time 
ought  to  come  when  the  amount  of  fees 
and  revenue  that  would  come  from  the 
licensing  of  the  fishing  in  its  proper 
regulation  would  defray  not  only  the 
cost  of  enforcing  the  laws,  l)ut  also  the 
cost  of  such  necessary  propagation  as 
the  states  found  necessary  to  conduct. 

Mr.  Hampton:  Mr.  Bissell  has  touched 
upon  a  question  that  lies  more  particu- 
larly within  my  field  than  that  which 
has  been  under  discussion.  I  would  not 
of  course  assume  to  discuss  the  (juestion 
of  propagation  of  fish.  That  is  out  of 
my  line,  and  all  that  I  might  say  upon 
the  matter  which  is  really  under  dis- 
cussion would  be  in  the  nature  of  a  ques- 
tion. 

It  has  been  suggested  to  me  by  Michi- 
gan fishermen,  and  on  account  of  my  lo- 
cation at  the  headquarters  of  one  of  the 
principal  fishing  firms  upon  the  lakes,  I 
have  liad  some  ojiportunities  of  learning 
something  about  the  matters  you  have 
talked  about — it  has  been  suggested 
that  one  of  the  best  ways  of  accomplish- 
ing this  object  you  are  all  aiming  at, 
would  be  to  prevent  the  setting  of  nets 
in  a  certain  depth  of  water,  following 
out  as  I  understand  it,  somewliat  the 
plan  that  is  in  vogue  in  Ohio,  as  stated 
by  Mr.  Keyes  of  that  state.  I  believe 
that  in  the  waters  adjacent  to  our  state 
(Michigan)  that  would  be  practical,  be- 
cause our  lakes  are  such  that  you  can- 
not wade  across  them  without  wetting 
your  pants,  but  I  do  not  know  how  that 
would  be  in  Lake  Erie,  whether  the 
same  laws  that  would  be  applical)le  to 
Michigan  would  be  applicable  there  or 
not.  I  would  simply  throw  out  that 
suggestion,  that  the  gentlomen,  in  con- 
sidering the  resolution,  would  say  whe- 
ther or  not  the  taking  of  fish  upon  their 
spawning  beds  could  not  be  prevented 
by  some  provision  in  [regard  to  the 
depth  of  water  at  which  nets  should  be 
set,  as  well  as  having  a  close  season. 

Now,   in    regard   to  the   matter  sug- 


gested by  Mr.  Bissell,  as  to  what  should 
be  the  first  thing  done,  I  must  differ 
slightly  with  him,  and  I  speak  from  ex- 
perience when  I  say  that  the  first  thing 
is  not  to  get  the  officers  to  enforce  the 
law,  but  to  get  the  laws,  or  you  cannot 
enforce  them.  With  the  laws  as  they 
are  in  Michigan,  and  I  speak  from  ex- 
perience, under  the  very  best  system  ef 
wardens,  under  the  very  best  paid  offi- 
cers, it  would  be  utterly  impossible  to 
enforce  them.  We  had  ostensibly  laws 
regulating  the  size  of  the  mesh,  and  yet 
by  some  oversight,  by  some  blunder, 
every  time  that  these  laws  have  been 
amended,  they  have  included  that  same 
clause  that  the  nets  now  in  use  may  be 
permitted.  I  just  refer  to  that  as  one 
thing. 

Mr.  Bissell :  It  was  not  an  oversight. 

Mr.  Hampton:  I  suppose  the  idea 
was,  there  was  a  constitutional  (piestion 
involved  there,  that  tiiey  could  not  take 
property  now  in  use.  I  sui)pose  that  was 
the  idea.  If  that  was  the  idea  it  nullifies 
absolutely  any  enforcement  of  that  law. 
That  is  an  illustration  of  the  fish  laws, 
and  many  of  our  game  laws  are  so  frail 
that  it  is  utterly  impossible  in  Michigan, 
until  these  defects  are  corrected,  to 
have  an  enforcement  of  most  of  them. 
So  I  believe  the  first  thing  to  do  is  to 
nave  the  laws  that  can  be  enforced  and 
then  I  will  say,  have  a  system  of  ward- 
ens that  you  all  agree  upon  to  have 
those  laws  enforced. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  I  beg  to  intrude  again 
for  a  tew  minutes,  parti(!ularly  in  regard 
to  the  remarks  that  came  from  Mr.  Bis- 
sell. His  view  would  .seem  to  be  to  es- 
tablish a  sort  of  sliding  scale  for  the 
close  season  for  fishing. 

I  may  say  to  you  that  I  have  con- 
structed fourteen  hatcheries  in  the  Do- 
mini >n  of  ('anada,  from  the  Atlantic 
Ocean  to  the  Pacific,  ami  my  experience 
of  twenty-five  years  proves  to  me  be- 
yond any  doubt  that  there  is  a  very 
little  variation  with  regard  to  the  spawn- 
ing time  of  the  salmonidii'  in  that  great 
extent  of  territory.  We  have  taken 
white  fish  in  Manitoba,  white  fish  in  the 
Georgian  Bay,  white  fish  in   Lake  On- 


44 


tario  and  at  other  points,  and  we  do  not 
find  beyond  tliree  or  four  days'  difler- 
ence  of  the  time  in  vvliich  the  great 
spawning  time  takes  phice.  We  have 
salmon  liatcheries  extending  from  the 
Atlantic  Coast  to  the  Pacific  and  we  find 
but  very  little  deviation,  not  beyond  a 
week  or  ten  days,  of  all  the  eggs  we 
gather  for  our  hatcheries.  We  have  sal- 
mon trout  that  we  gather  in  Georgian 
Bay,  along  Lake  Ontario  and  elsewhere, 
and,  in  fact,  it  only  deviates  a  few  days 
in  regard  to  time  when  the  eggs  are  per- 
fectly ripe  for  impregnation. 

80  under  those  circumstances  the  Do- 
minion Government  has  thought  proper 
to  select  a  period  wliich  will  cover  all 
the  locations  between  tiie  Pacific  and 
the  Atlantic  as  far  as  a  I'lose  season  is 
concerned.  They  find  that  the  salmon 
trout  and  the  white  fish  will  be  covered 
by  a  close  season  taking  in  the  month  of 
November.  That  also  includes  herring. 
If  you  are  going  to  give  a  part  of  a  sea- 
son, eight  or  ten  days,  it  will  amount  to 
nothing,  because  they  do  not  spawn  in 
thac  time.  Some  fish  are  a  little  further 
advanced  when  they  approach  theshores 
for  reproduction  than  others,  and  you 
must  get  a  certain  limit  in  which  you 
cover  the  greater  proportion  of  the 
spawn,  and  our  exi)erience  of  some 
twenty-five  or  thirty  years  shows  that 
the  month  of  November  will  cover  the 
period  of  spawning  of  the  white  fish  in 
the  northwest  territories,  in  Manitoba, 
in  Georgian  Bay,  in  Lake  Huron  and  in 
Lake  Ontario  and  elsewhere  where  we 
have  been  manipul«ting  fish.  The  cou- 
8e(iuence  is  that  1  think  if  you  wisli  to 
have  a  variable  period,  you  will  not  be 
carrying  out  what  is  correct  with  regard 
to  the  protection  and  propagation  of 
your  fishes.  Take  only  one  limited 
period  of  time  and  that  will  cover  two  or 
three  of  the  more  important  species  and 
let  that  be  kept  tlioroughly  and  effi- 
cientiy  and  you  reach  the  point  which 
you  are  aiming  at;  but,  to  have  a  slitl- 
ing  scale  with  regard  to  a  close  season, 
having  one  time  in  one  state  and  an- 
other in  another,  to  my  mind  would  be 


a  fallacy  and  amount  to  nothing  what- 
ever. 

Mr.  Osborn :  ]\Ir.  Chairman  and  Gen- 
tlemen of  the  Convention — We  cannot 
get,  sometimes,  home  rule  when  we 
want  it,  and  it  is  not  policy  for  this  con- 
vention, I  think,  to  ask  of  the  legisla- 
latures  of  the  states  to  enact  laws  which 
will  stop  the  fishermen  from  fishing  in 
November.  I  do  not  believe  one  of 
them  will  grant  it.  You  will  get  noth- 
ing. In  our  state  we  have  shortened 
the  time  to  thirty-five  days  for  shooting 
(piails  and  we  have  doiie  it  gradually. 
We  commenced  with  sixty-five  days  and 
there  is  scarcely  a  sportsman  in  Ohio 
to-day  who  would  be  willing  to  grant  an 
extension  of  the  time,  for  they  find  that 
in  the  thirty-five  days  of  open  season  we 
have  an  abundance  of  game,  and  it  is 
not  possible  for  them  to  reduce  the 
(juantity  of  game  by  shooting. 

If  we  could  have  five  days,  say  at  the 
dose  of  the  season  before  the  fish  (piit 
spawning,  with  no  nets  at  all,  we  would 
have  a  great  (pxantity  of  fish  spawned, 
naturally.  As  Mr.  Bowman  has  sliown, 
one  .Sal)l)ath  day  or  two  Sabbath  days  of 
the  shad  season  in  New  York  gives 
jilenty  of  shad  from  which  to  take  the 
spawn.  The  shell  fishermen  of  New 
York  and  Connecticut  have  hit  upon  a 
I)lan  for  the  preservation  of  their  shell 
fish(>ries  that  is  a  perfect  success,  and  the 
shell  fisheries  of  the  Chesapeake  Bay  will 
havi'  to  come  t<»  the  same — the  leasing 
of  grounds  upon  which  the  shell  fish 
grow  and  are  produced.  We  will  have 
to  come  to  this  upon  our  lakes,  the  leas- 
ing of  the  fishing  grounds,  for  only  upon 
leased  grounds  do  we  reach  that  enforce- 
ment of  observance  of  law  which  will 
make  the  fishing  perpetual.  We  have  the 
de("ision  in  Ohio  of  some  ot  our  best  law- 
yers, showing  tliat  this  is  constitutional 
and  that  it  is  in  the  power  of  the  state 
to  lease  the  fishing  grounds.  Now,  you 
can  .see  that  leases  could  be  executed  in 
such  shape  as  to  put  the  conduct  of  the 
fishing,  the  ways  for  the  fishing,  the 
days  for  the  fishing,  altogether  in  the 
hands  of  the  officers  having  it  in  charge, 


45 


and  tliiH  settles  entirely  and  altoK'ether 
the  whole  question.  Canada,  under  the 
common  rulinf;  as  given  hy  our  own 
lawyers,  can  do  the  same  thing;  they  can 
lease  their  fishing  grounds,  and  this  will 
prevent  the  troul)le. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  They  are  doing  it  now, 
sir,  and  always  have. 

Mr.  0.sborn  :  That  only  goes  to  show 
we  can  do  it  too,  but  upon  the  opinions 
founded  upon  general  law  and  good  rea- 
son, it  can  be  done  upon  both  sides  of 
the  water,  and  I  tliink  if  this  convention 
will  consider  tlie  feasibility  of  leasing 
and  its  desirability,  and  recommend 
that,  we  will  do  a  great  deal,  but  I  be- 
lieve if  we  ask  the  state  legislatures  to 
prohibit  fishing  <luring  the  month  of 
November,  we  will  accomplish  nothing. 
We  may  accomplish  a  good  deal  upon 
the  other  hand.  This  matter  has  been 
considered  by  our  fishermen  and  there 
are  a  great  many  difficulties  in  the  way, 
but  they  are  principally  selfish  difficul- 
ties, that  is,  difficulties  between  the  fish- 
ermen and  the  location  of  their  nets,  but 
if  they  do  not  do  somefhing  they  will 
have  no  fish  to  catch  after  a  short  tiine. 

The  Secretary:  Mr.  Ohairman  and 
Gentlemen— T  have  been  listening  to  the 
remarks  made  his  evening  upon  this 
subject,  and  I  must  say  that  it  is  a  very 
deep  and  very  knotty  subject  to  setth'. 
I  think  we  have  lost  sight  of  one  thing 
that  was  recalled  to  me  by  the  ol)serva- 
tion  of  Mr.  Kooth  in  his  letter  in  regard 
to  meeting  our  neighbors  across  the 
water,  the  Canadians,  and  we  should 
bear  in  mind  that  their  territory  covers 
the  entire  north  shore  of  our  inland 
great  lakes  and  that  they  have  not  only 
passed  these  laws  of  close  season?,  ))ut 
they  have  gone  still  farther  and  ap- 
pointed a  committee  this  last  fall  for  the 
puri)Ose  of  conferring  with  the  ])eoi)leof 
the  United  States  in  reference  to  these 
great  lakes  and  the  fisheries.  Now,  the 
thought  has  occuri^l  to  me  that  after 
all  our  tliscussion,  it  <loes  not  seem  pos- 
sible for  us  to  agree,  and  as  Mr.  Hissell 
has  remarked,  this  is  a  matter  that  re- 
tiuires  a  great  deal  of  study.  I  think 
that  six  of  the  states  bordering  on  the 


great  lakes  are  to-night  represented. 
Three  of  them  are  not  represented, 
Pennsylvania,  Illinois  and  Wisconsin. 
Considering  the  importance  of  the  mat- 
ter, and  the  many  cjuestions  arising  to 
be  settled  and  interests  to  be  considered 
and  subserved,  it  occurred  to  me  whether 
it  would  not  be  better  for  this  meeting 
to  appoint  a  committee  empowered  to 
draw  up  a  petition  or  a  retpiest  to  be 
sent  to  the  governors  of  the  states  bor- 
dering on  the  great  lakes,  stating  the 
importance  of  the  subject,  and  the  fact 
that  Ontario  has  appointed  a  commis- 
sion, for  the  purpose  and  ask  those  gov- 
ernors and  their  legislatures  to  appoint 
a  commission  to  meet  with  the  Ontario 
commission  and  take  evidence  and  ex- 
amine into  this  subject.  Then  they 
could  report  back  to  their  difierent  leg- 
islatures the  legislation  that  they  deem 
best  and  wi.sest  to  enact.  Do  you  not 
think  that  by  that  wo  would  arrive  at  a 
wise  solution  of  the  whole  matter  ? 
Would  it  not  ])e  better  than  to  go  to  the 
(liflferent  legislatures  and  get  enactments 
that  would  not  agree  ?  It  seems  to  me 
tiiat  to  accomplish  anything  we  have  not 
onlj'  got  to  get  at  the  thing  correctly  be- 
fore we  go  to  the  legislatinvs,  but  we  liave 
got  to  get  some  unformity,  and  tlien  be- 
sides all  that  we  have  to  go  there  with  a 
sentiTient  behind  us  that  will  carry  us 
through.  Such  a  proposition  commg 
from  such  a  commission,  representing 
Ontario  and  all  the  states  bordering  on 
till'  great  lakes,  after  plenty  of  study 
and  consideration  and  testimony  from 
parties  interested,  would  be  a  step  to- 
ward the  settlement  of  the  whole  ([iies- 
tion.  I  merely  make  that  suggestion  as 
it  occurred  to  me  after  hearing  the  re- 
marks of  you  gentlemen.  I  think  we 
ought  to  meet  our  Canadian  brothers 
hall  way  and  show  them  we  are  inter- 
ested in  these  fisheries  of  the  great  lakes. 
Mr.  -Vndius:  It  has  been  the  iilea  of 
the  Minnesota  commission  that  the  time 
is  not  far  distant  when  we  will  have  to 
do  as  our  Canadian  friends  do  and  lea.se 
the  grounds.  I  fully  agree  with  the  re- 
marks of  the  gentleman  who  has  pre- 
ceded me,  Mr.  Amsden,  that  it  would  be 


4r. 


wise  first  to  have  a  committee  appointed 
to  draft  a  petition  witii  snch  a  recjueatas 
lie  snggests.  S])eaking  for  the  Minne- 
sota commission,  I  believe  we  would  fall 
in  with  that  very  quickly. 

Mr.  Wilniot:  I  wish  to  say  something 
with  regard  to  the  leasing  of  the  fisher- 
ies. The  Canadian  Government  both 
leases  the  fisheries  and  grants  licenses, 
and  each  of  those  leases  and  licenses  al- 
ways have  in  them  the  statement  that 
the  close  season  shall  be  observed  so 
that  the  leasing  of  the  fisheries  or  any- 
thing of  that  kind  will  not  interfere  with 
the  system  we  adopt  in  having  a  close 
season. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  It  seems  to  me,  gentle- 
men, that  the  closer  we  are  to  the  law- 
making power  tlio  better.  I  do  not 
know  what  influence  your  governor  may 
have  on  the  legislature  herein  this  state, 
or  in  any  other  of  the  states,  but  in  our 
state  a  respectable  committee  can  do 
more  with  the  permanent  standing  com- 
mittee toward  maintainini  the  laws  than 
the  governor. 

I  think  the  surest  way  for  us  to  do  is 
to  talk  to  these  gentlemen  like  brother 
Keyesand  show  them  that  we  are  honest- 
ly and  earnestly  working  in  their  interest. 
It  does  not  make  a  cent's  worth  of  differ- 
ence to  me  who  catches  the  fish.  I 
would  like  to  see  you  catch  twice  as 
many  fish  as  you  did  before,  but  I  hon- 
estly and  earnestly  believe  that  the  way 
to  do  that  is  to  preserve  the  fish  by  a 
close  season  and  give  ttiem  a  chance  to 
reproduce  themselves,  and  we  will  sup- 
plement the  natural  process  by  fish 
culture.  And  if  wo  can  convince  you 
that  we  are  working  in  your  interest, 
which  I  honestly  think  we  are,  and  you 
would  join  your  efforts  to  ours,  there 
need  be  no  contest;  we  can  have  these 
laws  passed  and  the  fish  will  be  pre- 
served, and  you  will  get  the  benefit,  not 
the  fish  commissions.  We  will  get  no 
benefit ;  it  is  our  fellow  citizens  who  are 
making  their  money  by  catching  fish. 
We  only  ask  you  to  join  us  in  the  effort 
to  increase  the  fish  business,  your  own 
business ;  it  will  not  make  a  cent's  worth 
of  difference  to  any  fish  commiss'on  that 


I  know  of,  but  we  are  sincerely  working 
in  the  interest  of  those  who  are  making 
money  out  of  catching  fish,  and  I  think 
if  we  can  get  together  and  show  that 
there  is  no  antagonism  between  the  fish 
culturists  and  the  fish  catchers,  the  mat- 
ter may  be  settled  without  any  difhculty. 
It  is  my  earnest  desire  that  such  a 
meeting  o:  these  committees  to  be  ap- 
pointed will  be  brought  about,  and  that 
we  will  formulate  something  that  may 
lead  to  proper  legislation,  which  will 
conserve  and  preserve  and  extend  the 
benefits  that  the  fishmen  are  getting, 
and  not  only  they,  but  through  them 
the  whole  people  will  receive  the  bene- 
fit of  it.  That  is  as  I  take  it,  the  whole 
of  the  matter,  that  we  wish  to  preserve 
the  fish  we  have  instead  of  letting  them 
be  extinguished.  To  increase  the  sup- 
ply, ari  that  increase  inures  to  the  ben- 
efit of  those  wh(j  have  their  money  in- 
vested in  the  selling  and  catching  of 
fish.  It  seems  to  me  that  if  we  can  come 
to  an  understanding  with  each  other 
that  there  is  no  antagonism,  it  will  be 
seen  that  we  do  not  wish  to  oppress 
any  man's  business.  I  am  sure  all  the 
fish  culturists  that  I  know  would  like  to 
see  them  catch  tenfold  what  they  are 
to-day.  That  is  the  whole  object  of  our 
efforts,  and  has  been  for  years,  and  as  I 
say,  if  we  can  come  to  an  understanding 
with  each  other  and  show  you  these 
things,  I  think  your  business  and  your 
interests  will  be  .subserved  beyond  any 
other.  We  have  been  receiving  this  op- 
position from  the  fishermen  for  years, 
and  at  first  it  was  ten  times  as  pro- 
nounced as  it  is  at  the  present  time, 
and  I  feel  encouraged.  At  first  they 
were  not  willing  to  allow  us  to  take  the 
eggs,  and  now  they  gladly  assist  and  do 
everything  they  cai.,  give  us  room  in 
their  boats  to  take  the  eggs,  and  are 
glad  we  are  doing  it,  and  this  last  year 
the  only  jealousy  I  have  seen  on  Lake 
Superior  was  because  we  did  not  have  a 
man  with  each  boat  that  went  out. 

Mr.  Huntington:  Mr.  Chairman,  as  I 
understand,  this  is  a  conference  for  the 
purpose  of  consid'»ring  certain  questions, 
and  the  first  (juestion  before  it  for  con- 


47 


sideration  is  In  relation  to  protection. 
Tlie  one  now  under  consideration  is,  an 
I  underHtand  it,  should  there  be  a  dose 
season  for  white  fish? 

It  ai)pearH  to  jne  there  is  a  very  t,'reat 
diHerence  of  opinion  upon  the  subject 
liere,  and  it  seems  to  me  tliat  it  is  an 
abstract  question  wliich  we  have  before 
us  to  be  considered.  I  luive  listened 
with  a  great  deal  of  attention  to  the  ar- 
guments of  these  gentlemen  from  their 
various  standpoints,  and  while  we  are 
not  a  legislative  body,  and  not  responsi- 
ble to  our  legislatures,  yet  it  might  lead 
to  a  good  deal  of  benefit  if  we  could 
agree  upon  making  a  uniform  recom- 
mendation, and  I  will  make  the  follow- 
ing motion,  that  it  is  tlie  judgment  of 
this  conference  that  there  should  be  a 
close  season. 

The  motion  was  sup])orted. 

The  Chairman :  The  motion  is  now 
open  for  discussion.  We  have  not  beard 
from  Mr.  McDonald,  and  as  he  represc^nts 
the  Buffalo  Fish  Company,  we  would  be 
very  glad  to  hear  from  him. 

Mr.  McDonald:  I  think  that  first 
question  should  read.  Should  there  be  a 
close  season  for  herring,  instead  of  wliite 
fish?  I  think  the  white  fish  are  all  out 
of  Lake  Erie,  and  it  is  the  herring  we 
are  after  now.  We  have  made  up  our 
minds  that  there  should  be  a  close  sea- 
son for  the  fish.  We  believe  that  every- 
thing should  be  taken  out  of  the  water 
on  the  loth  day  of  November,  every  net 
of  every  description.  We  do  not  believe 
at  all  in  having  a  close  season  in  the 
spring  of  the  year.  We  think  the  pick- 
erel is  a  fish  that  should  be  cleaned  out 
of  Lake  Erie.  We  claim  that  they  con- 
sume more  herring  than  their  own  real 
value  amounts  to.  There  is  really  no 
money  in  the  fish. 

Dr.  Sweeny :  May  I  ask  what  fish  you 
mean  by  pickerel  ? 

Mr.  McDonald:  I  mean  the  wall-eyed 
pike.  We  think  a  good  deal  of  the 
Canada  laws,  in  theway  they  stand  now, 
and  I  suppose  the  dealers  on  this  side 
will  have  some  prejudice  against  us  on 
that  account,  for  the  reason  that  we 
get  a  great  many  of  the  Canada  fisli. 


We  think  that  tlie  Canada  laws,  modi- 
fied a  little  bit,  taking  that  spring  close 
season  out  of  them  and  having  a  close 
season  for  everything  in  the  fall  of  the 
year,  would  do  a  great  deal  toward  re- 
))lenishing  the  lakes.  There  was  a  let- 
ter read  from  a  gentleman  a  few  min- 
utes ago  which  stated  that  the  white  fish 
were  apparently  cleaned  out.  We  are 
having  more  white  fish  to  day  than  we 
ever  had. 

The  Secretary:  Where  do  they  come 
from  ? 

Mr.  McDonald:  From  Canada,  from 
Lake  Erie,  Georgian  Bay,  Superior  and 
Manitoba. 

The  Secretary:  You  do  not  get  any 
from  Lake  Erie? 

Mr.  ^FcDonald :  We  get  our  share  of 
them. 

The  Secretary:   Are  there  any  caught 
in  your  nets? 
Mr.  McDonald :  Yes. 
TheSecretary:  What  part  of  the  year? 
Mr.  McDonald:    We  catch   them   in 
November  and  October. 

Mr.   Keyes:    Were  there  more  wiiite 
fish  this  fall  than  last? 
Mr.  McDonald:  Yes. 
The  Secretary:    You  say  you    catch 
white  fish,  at  which  end  of  the  lake? 

Mr.  McDonald:  Both  ends.  We  have 
fisheries  at  both  ends  of  the  lake. 

The  Secretary:  On  the  American  or 
Canadian  side? 
Mr.  McDonald :  Both  sides. 
The  Secretary :    You  get  white  fish  on 
V)oth  sides  and  at  both  ends  of  the  lake  ? 
Mr.  McDonald:   Yes. 
Mr.  Wilmot:  During  the  close  season? 
Mr.  McDonald:  No,  sir;  we  never  vio- 
late the  close  season  of  Canada.      You 
know  better  than  to  do  that,  and  that 
is  one  reason  why  we  admire  the  Cana- 
dian laws.     When  they  say  you  have  to 
do  a  thing  in  Canada,  you  have  got  to 
do  it.      We  tested  that  this  fall  on  the 
herring,  and  they  gave  us  orders  to  stop 
fishing,  and  we  stopped. 

Mr.  Post :  I  may  say  so  far  as  the  De- 
troit River  is  concerned  on  the  Araeri- 
side,  that  all  the  fish  caught  were  caught 
by  the   Detroit  Fish  Commission,   and 


48 


they  answered  a  UHcfiil  purpose  in  fur- 
niHhing  spawn  for  reproducing  fisli.  We 
caught  all  the  tisli  that  were  caught  on 
this  side  of  the  river  this  season  and 
practically  all  that  have  been  caught  for 
several  years. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  I  might  state  for  the  in- 
formation of  the  conference  that  it  is  the 
same  case  with  (Canada,  all  the  iisli 
(taught  on  the  Canadian  side  of  the  De- 
troit River  were  caught  hy  the  gcnern- 
ment  nets  this  year. 

Mr.  Keyes:  In  regard  to  this  tpiestion 
of  a  close  season,  1  will  say  we  cannot 
make  a  law  in  Ohio  which  will  close  one 
part  of  tlie  lake  and  leave  the  other  jiart 
open.  If  we  make  a  law  it  has  got  to  be 
for  the  whole  state. 

The  Secretary :  What  are  you  going  to 
do  with  Pennsylvania  ? 

Mr.  Keyes:  Pennsylvania,  of  course, 
is  left  out.  Many  of  you  are  laboring 
under  a  decided  mistake  so  far  as  the 
the  fishermen  are  concerned.  There  are 
no  people  on  the  face  of  the  earth  who 
are  more  anxious  to  keep  up  the  fish 
supply  of  these  lakes  than  the  fishermen 
engaged  in  catching  them  for  commerce. 

The  question  of  a  close  season  is  not  a 
new  question.  You  take  the  matter  of 
the  shad  that  Mr.  Bowman  talked  about 
in  the  Hudson  River.  I  would  like  to 
know  when  he  would  take  them  if  he 
did  not  take  them  in  the  spawning  sea- 
son, that  is  the  only  time. 

Dr.  Sweeny :  That  is  because  they  do 
not  live  in  fresh  water. 

Mr.  Keyes :  The  trouble  with  the  close 
season  in  Lake  Erie  is  that  you  want  to 
take  the  very  month  when  we  can  catch 
the  fish. 

Mr.  Post .  We  propose  to  divide  it. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  am  not  talking  about 
the  time  at  all ;  l)ut  you  take  the  only 
time  that  the  fishermen  can  take  the 
fish  in  paying  (juantities.  If  you  could 
prove  that  by  the  close  season  of  the 
month  of  Novem])er,»you  would  replen- 
ish the  waters  of  Lake  Erie,  you  might 
have  an  argument,  but  I  doubt  very 
much  if  you  could  substantiate  that. 

Dr.  Sweeny :  There  is  Canada,  that  is  a 
sample. 


Mr.  Keyes:  It  is  not  at  all  parallel  to 
the  State  of  Ohio  on  the  fish  (juestion. 
If  you  catch  a  she  fish  before  it  has 
spawned,  you  destroy  the  spawn  just  as 
njuch  as  if  you  wait  until  the  spawning 
season  and  get  it. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  You  say  there  is  nojtos- 
.sibility  of  destroying  the  fish  for  spawn- 
ing purj)oses? 

Mr.  Keyes :  No,  I  do  not  sa)'  that. 
What  I  mean  is  this:  If  we  can  leave 
enough  ground,  if  the  fishermen  will  not 
lay  their  nets  so  that  the  fish  cannot  get 
to  their  spawning  grounds,  your  supply 
of  fish  will  be  kept  u]). 

Mr.  Harris:  I  do  not  think  sutlicient 
stress  has  l)een  laid  on  the  question  as  to 
whether  white  fish  are  fit  for  food  at  the 
time  we  projjose  for  a  close  season,  that 
is,  during  the  spawning  season. 

A  circumstance  occurred  in  1885  in 
England,  during  the  i)eriod  of  the  great 
Fisberies  Exhibition,  while  the  Chinese 
deputation  were  over  there.  They  were 
surjirised  at  the  scarcity  and  price  of 
fish  in  Kngland.  In  their  own  country, 
which  is  the  most  densely  populated 
country  in  the  world,  there  are  cheap 
fish  and  fish  for  everybody,  but  is  is  their 
religion  which  keeps  it  up.  While  the 
Chinese  will  eat  rats  at  any  time,  it  is 
their  religion  not  to  touch  a  fish  in  the 
spawning  season.  They  look  upon  it  as 
poison,  and  the  fact  remains  that  in 
China,  probably  more  than  in  any  other 
country,  there  is  a  superfluity  of  fish, 
and  fish  for  the  whole  population.  It  is 
not  at  all  improbable  if  we  go  on  in  this 
country  catching  our  fish  out  of  season 
that  we  will  have  to  learn  what  it  has 
taken  them  a  thousand  years  to  learn, 
that  we  will  destroy  everything.  In 
Canada  we  destroyed  everything;  we 
destroyed  game  and  fish  and  a  good  deal 
of  the  land.  Everything  is  wasted.  It 
seemed  to  come  natural  to  destroy. 

When  we  come  to  Lake  Erie,  the  lake 
I  know  most  about,  I  know  just  how 
much  destruction  has  taken  place  there. 
When  I  was  a  young  man  it  was  one  of 
the  finest  white  fish  lakes  in  Canada, 
and  you  can  imagine  what  the  rush  of 
white  fish  48  years  ago  was  that  came  up 


\1 


4d 


tlif  hctniil  liivci' to  spiiwii  iUid  lor  iiotli- 
\nii  cl.sc.  Voii  (Ic'stroyi'il  tlu'in  iind  tlicy 
arc  piiic.  Ill  Canada,  in  tin-  position 
in  wliifii  I  liavo  recently  been  placed, 
tlioii^di  only  temporarily,  it  occurs  to  me 
that  we  hold  our  fisheries  in  trust  for 
the  people. 

Tho  Chairman:  That  is  right. 

^Ir.  Harris;  To  see  that  they  have  for 
all  time  a  supply  of  fish;  that  the  coun- 
try is  not  de|jrivt>d  of  this  fish. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  would  like  to  ask  you  if 
yon  think  it  is  right  to  catch  a  lish  in  a 
gill  net? 

Mr.  Harris:  1  look  upon  the  seine  as 
the  worst  of  all  nets;  I  look  upon  iiie 
gill  net  as  the  next  worse,  and  1  look 
upon  the  pound  net  with  a  i)roperniesh 
as  the  proper  way  to  catch,  iish  in  our 
lakes. 

Mr.  Keyes:  That  is  right. 

Mr.  Harris:  I  believe  there  are  more 
fish  destroyed  in  the  (Jeorgian  Bay,  car- 
ried away  in  November  by  gill  nets,  than 
are  ever  brought  ashore. 

Th(^  Secretary:  Supi)0se,  Mr.  Keyes, 
nothing  is  done  in  the  way  of  regulating 
the  fisheries  of  Lake  Erie  in  the  next 
five  or  ten  years,  what  would  become  of 
your  iuve^ments  in  your  boat.-;,  twine 
and  everytbing  else  ;  would  it  be  a  dead 
loss  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  do  not  think  that  makes 
any  diflerence,  though  J  will  answer  that 
ipiestion.  1  am  perfectly  satisfied  that 
if  some  regulation  is  not  entered  into, 
the  iishing  outfits  in  Lake  Erie  in  five 
years  will  not  l)e  worth  o  cents  on  the 
dollar. 

I\Ir.  Harris:  I  have  been  asked  what  I 
consider  the  proi)er  pound  net.  I  sup- 
pose that  is  meant  for  Lake  Erie.  I  can 
only  si)eak  for  our  own  side,  Ijut  I  think 
the  proper  pound  net  for  our  side  of  the 
lake  is  an  .SO  rod  lead,  six  or  seven  inch 
extension  mesh,  four-inch  mesh  in  the 
hearts  and  three-inch  in  the  pots.  1 
think  our  herring  in  Lake  Erie  are  much 
larger  than  the  Lake  Huron  herring  and 
considerably  larger  than  the  Lake  On- 
tarifj  herring.  1  think  our  three-inch 
mesh  will  just  catch  the  proper  herring, 
and   will   allow   a   verv   fair-sized  small 


white  fish  to  escape.  That  is  the  net  t 
think  is  proper  for  bake  Erie,  and  I 
think  it  would  be  satisfactory  to  most  of 
our  fishermen. 

Mr.  Wilniot :  Will  you  describe  to  the 
conference  the  idea  that  pnnails  with 
the  pound  net  fishermen  on  liuke  Erie 
as  to  the  close  season  ? 

Mr.  Harris:  Our  jxiund  net  num  are 
ipiite  willing  to  have  a  twenty-day  close 
season,  and  I  think  you  may  say  they 
are  prei)ared  for  a  nnjnth.  There  was  a 
suggestion  to  make  the  clo.se  season 
from  the  lolls  of  October,  but  that  was 
too  nnndi  for  them.  They  are  (piite 
prepared  and  I  thi)d<  they  look  forward 
to  having  a  proper  close  season.  There 
are  very  lew  gill  net  men  with  us  and 
many  of  them  have  but  a  very  small 
amount  of  cai)ital  invested,  but  our 
pound  net  men  usually  huve  five  or  six 
nets  and  their  steam  tugs  .'.ind  ice  houses. 
S(,me  of  them  hav(^  freezcsrs,  l)utit  is  not 
a  very  pleasant  outlook  for  a  man  with 
several^housand  dollars  in  the  fishery 
business  to  look  forward  to  that  business 
getting  worsi'  and  worse  every  year,  and 
to  look  forward  to  nothing  less  than  to 
have  to  sell  out  and  start  some  other 
business.  They  areall  beginningto  have 
those  views  on  this  question,  and  they 
are  all  willing  to  listen  to  any  plan  that 
is  suggested  to  improve  thi'ir  fisheries, 
so  they  may  look  forward  to  the  im- 
provement of  their  business  from  year 
to  year. 

The  Chairman:  Gentlemen,  is  there 
anything  more  to  be  said  on  this  ipies- 
tion?  I  feel,  myself,  that  I  would  like 
to  talk  on  it,  l>ut  I  shall  not  delay  you. 
There  has  been  a  ureat  deal  said  and  1 
should  like  to  have  alluded  to  what  lias 
brought  this  matter  to  the  attention  of 
lish  culturists,  and  to  their  disinterested 
way  of  looking  at  the  matter.  We  have 
no  antagonism  to  the  fishermen,  but  we 
do  feel  the  truth  of  the  expression  used 
i)y  our  Canadian  friend  (Mr.  Harris), 
that  we  hold  the  fisheries  in  trust  for 
the  people  for  the  future.  I  will  not  go 
oil  because  the  hour  is  too  lati',  and  if 
there  is  nothing  more  to  be  said,  I  will 
put  the  (piestion.  ;  ;    , 


r)() 


Mr.  Wilniot:  I  move  that  the  chiiir- 
Tnan  !)('  uHowimI  to  prooetMl  with  his  rc- 
iniirks. 

Th(>  motion  was  put  by  tlie  Secretary 
and  carri»>(l. 

Mr.  Wliitaiccr:  In  my  boyliood  days  I 
liv<Ml  about  sixty  or  Hoveiity  niih'H  sontii 
of  Lalxc  Ontario,  in  the  State  of  New 
York,  and  in  the  winter  season  of  tlie 
year  it  was  a  customary  tiling  for  tbe 
farmers  in  tiiat  eommunity  to  g<»  to 
Channiont  Bay,  and  bring  back  in  tlieir 
fileiglis  large  (juantities  of  Lake  Ontario 
fish.  Tliey  would  bring  back  trout, 
wiiite  llsh  and  ciscoes,  and  tliese  were 
sold  to  the  farmers  all  about  tbat  coun- 
try and  served  the  purpose  of  breaking 
up  the  monotony  of  the  pork  barrel, 
giving  to  the  farmer  a  variety  of  cheap 
and  wholesome  food  for  his  table.  About 
twenty  years  ago  I  left  the  State  of  New 
York,  and  from  information  I  have  I 
know  that  within  five  or  ten  years  from 
the  time  I  spoke  of  the  commercial  fish- 
ing of  Lake  Ontario  became  extinct, 
l)ractically .  It  was  not  pursued  for  profit 
any  longer  by  fishermen.  This  iP 
trates  what  fishing  without  rest 
will  <lo.  The  same  thing  is  occnrrinft  ^.i 
Lake  Erie  to-day,  and  tlie  same  is  true 
of  the  fishing  in  the  lower  end  of  Lake 
Huron. 

Look  at  Lake  Huron  in  1834,  accord- 
ing to  Blois'  statement  of  its  fisheries, 
and  look  at  Lake  Huron  to-day.  Blois 
in  his  Gazetteer,  published  in  1834,  said 
of  the  locality  at  the  Straits  of  Macki- 
nac, the  fish  are  so  plentiful  here  that 
for  ages  they  must  furnish  the  principal 
article  of  food  to  the  large  number  of 
people  wlio  shall  settle  upon  the  shores 
of  these  lakes.  It  wa§  true,  and  the  size  of 
the  fish  was  magnificent.  But  Blois  never 
could  have  dreamed  that  in  fifty  or  sixty 
years  from  the  date  at  which  he  wrote 
there  would  be  settled,  in  the  six  states 
bordering  upon  the  shores  of  these  lakes, 
one  sixth  of  the  entire  population  of 
the  United  States  of  America.  He  never 
could  have  dreamed  that  in  every  im- 
portant fishing  port  upon  those  lakes 
there  wonld  be  freezers  of  immense 
cai)a<ity. whieli  W(»ul(l  make  it  not  only 


possible  but  profitalde  for  fishermen  to 
fish  the  entire  year,  except  when  the 
elements  drove  them  from  tlieir  pur- 
suit. 

The  fishermen  say  to  our  commission 
when  we  go  to  them  for  the  purpose  of 
gatheiing  statistics,  that  year  by  year 
the  meshes  of  the  nets  are  contracted, 
they  grow  smaller  and  smaller.  I  liave 
had^tfthat  information  from  tishermen 
since  we  liave  been  in  session  Ii<  re,  and 
the  attempt  at  all  times  aJid  at  all  places 
is  to  take  fish  with  a  gradually  decreas- 
ing mesh.  The  result  of  it  is  that  tin-re 
are  to-day  hundreds  of  tons,  1  believe, 
of  small  white  fish  that  are  taken  under 
the  guise  of  lierring  ami  are  sold  in  the 
markets  for  herring. 

Another  thing  that  apjieals  to  us  as 
commissioners,  and  we  have  no  other 
interest  in  the  fisheries  except  to  sub- 
serve the  interest  of  the  public  at  large, 
is  the  fact  that  the  work  we  are  doing 
to-day,  which  the  states  engage  in  so 
willingly,  is  for  the  purpose  of  perpetu- 
ating this  foo<l  for  the  ])eople,  and  inci- 
dentally the  fishermen  reap  the  benefit. 
The  trouble  is  that  they  take  our  fish 
before  they  ever  get  to  a  spawning  age, 
and  there  comes  in  the  iniquity  of  the 
thing.  There  are  fishermen  all  through 
thefte  lakes  who  desire  some  sort  of  close 
season  imposed  or  some  sort  of  restric- 
tion laid  to  prevent  the  waste. 

These  things  appeal  to  us  as  commis- 
sioners. We  have  no  interest  in  it  ex- 
cept as  a  public  undertaking.  We  say 
to  the  fishermen,  look  at  this  matter  in 
the  way  we  look  at  it.  If  you  can  leave 
in  the  waters  these  fish  that  in  a  year  or 
two  will  be  merchantable  and  of  value 
to  you,  why  not  permit  them  to  ]>e  left 
there?  Why  take  them  out  when  they 
are  immature  and  have  never  come  to  a 
spawning  age  ?  In  that  way  we  lose  the 
great  benefit  of  our  work  of  artificial 
propagation,  and  I  say  to  you  now  what 
I  firmly  believe,  that  in  the  courst*  of  a 
very  years  if  this  thing  goes  on  as  it  has 
been  going  on,  it  will  all  stop.  I  say  to 
you  fishermen  that  it  is  to  your  interest 
as  well  as  to  the  interest  of  the  public, 
whom  we  represent  in  this  matter,  that 


61 


Hiiiuc  rciiHoiiiililc  rc^jnlation  Hliouhl  be 
iiii|Hts(Ml  1  wniild  not  liciir  l<»  a  rcfriila- 
tioM  tliat  would  drive  a  man  out  of  liis 
biisiiu'Hfi,  lint  li't  us  liavc  some  rcaKou- 
ahlc  roKuIatioii  that  will  not  permit  you 
to  tai<('  out  thcHi'  tisli  when  tlicy  arc  im- 
mature, l)nt  will  leave  them  in  the  lakes 
until  they  are  marketable  and  of  value. 

As  far  as  the  white  fish  is  «'oncerned, 
it  is  a  tender  tisli,  and  I  am  aHsured  by 
men  who  know,  that  they  are  so  tender 
that  very  many  tinu's  in  handlinjr  they 
are  injured  so  they  die.  1  cannot  quite 
understand  the  idea— I  may  be  wronjj — 
I  may  not  be  informed,  but  what  is  the 
use  of  takinjj;  these  fish  in  nets  if  you  are 
iin'iun  to  put  them  baek  again'.'  Why 
not  leave  them  in  the  Jakes?  Why  not 
HO  eonstruct  your  n(!ts  that  you  will  not 
take  them  at  '(/',  but  so  they  will  take 
oidy  the  tish  that  are  of  merchantable 
size?  It  seems  to  me  that  that  ought  to 
be  a  reasonable  regulation  to  lay  u])on 
the  fishing  industries. 

Lot  me  say  one  thing  with  reference  to 
a  close  season.  Tn  Canada  they  have  the 
month  of  November  closed.  Their  fish- 
ing is  |)rofitable.  There  is  no  complaint  { 
there  fron>  the  Canadian  fishermen,  as  I  ' 
understand,  that  the  fisliing  is  not  profit- 
able ;  but  the  only  thing  they  do  saj'  is 
that  our  neighbors  are  fishing  without 
restriction  across  the  border,  so  why  not 
allow  us  to  go  on  and  do  it?  I  am  thank- 
ful to  see  that  there  is  one  place  on 
(iod's  footstool  where  they  do  enforce  a 
law  that  seems  to  be  a  reasonable  and 
just  law.    I  wish  we  might  do  it  here. 

Tiiere  were  some  remarks  made  here 
with  regard  to  a  licensing  of  grounds. 
I  a.ssure  you,  gentlemen,  that  if  we  go 
along  for  just  about  five  or  ten  years 
more  in  this  way  you  can  license  your 
grounds  for  growing  celery  or  fresh 
water  oysters,  l)ut  you  cannot  lic^ense 
them  for  wliite  fish.  The  fish  will  be 
gone !  There  will  be  nothing  to  lease. 
The  state  will  have  no  fishing  grounds 
that  there  will  be  any  money  in.  There 
will  be  no  temi>tation  for  a  man  to  rent 
fishing  grounds  here  at  all.  The  destruc- 
tion of  the  small  fish  is  the  thing,  if  it  is 
possible,  that  we  should  overcome.     1 


hopj'  we  shall  get  together  on  this  ami 
tluit  we  shall  adopt  the  resolution  of  the 
conference  committee  that  nuiy  rej/ort 
here  to-morrow  if  the  report  commends 
its«f]f  to  UH.  Let  them  report  here  to- 
morrow nu)rning  at  10  o'clock  ;  let  us 
iuive  that  conference  committee;  let  us 
see  wluit  we  can  do,  and  I  shall  be  very 
glad  indeed  if  we  can  come  lo  some  con- 
clusion. Our  legislative  bodies  ought 
not  to  ])e  a{)art  from  each  other  in  the 
matter  of  regulation.  We  ought  to  be 
united,  but  it  is  hard  to  be  met  by  the 
statement  that  no  regulation  will  l)e 
submitted  to  in  the  matter  of  restriction. 
If  we  are  wrong  in  this  thing,  this  con- 
ference committee  can  come  to  some  con- 
clusion and  suljmit  it  to  na,  and  we  can 
come  to  a  determination  as  to  what  ouiilit 
to  be  done. 

Mr.  McDonald:  Before  we  close  [  want 
to  say  that  you  are  wrong  in  thinking 
that  we  are  not  in  favor  of  a  clf»se  season. 

The  Chairman :  I  did  not  so  under- 
stand your  position,  Mr.  McDonald. 

If  there  is  nothing  more  to  be  said  on 
this  (]uestion  I  wdl  put  the  motion. 
The  motion  is  that  the  conferenct^  con- 
cur in  the  sentintent  that  it  is  their  be- 
lief that  there  should  be  a  close  season. 

The  motion  was  carried. 

The  Chairman  :  Now,  what  will  you  do 
witli  the  other  resolution  that  was  pro- 
posed, for  the  appointment  of  a  commit- 
tee? 

^Ir.  Bowman:  1  move  a  committee  be 
appointed. 

The  Chairman:  It  is  moved  that  a 
Committee  of  Conference  be  appointed, 
one  representative  from  each  state  and 
also  representatives  from  the  fishermen. 

Motion  carried. 

The  Chairman:  How  shall  that  com- 
mittee be  appointed? 

Mr.  Post:  By  the  Chair. 

The  Chairman :  Anticipating  that  per- 
haps you  might  want  me  to  appoint  a 
committee,  I  have  prepared  a  list. 

Dr.  iSweeny :  You  are  no  politician. 

The  Chairman :  I  can  see  some  embar- 
rassment to  Mr.  Wilmot  in  connection 
with  an  appointment  on  this  committee, 


0^ 


and  yet  ho  ought  to  servo  on  this  coniniit- 
tee. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  I  tliink  nonic  otlii'r  k«ii- 
tleiuan  liad  better  act  in  my  place.  I 
should  he  happy  to  render  any  Hervice  I 
could.  This  is  outside  of  the  jurisdic- 
tion in  which  I  iiave  authority. 

The  Chairman:  I  think  I  will  ai)poii)t 
Mr.  Wilmot  as  a  consulting  nuMuber  of 
the  committee.    ■ 

Mr.  Wihi'  (t:  Is  that  in  a  medical  way, 
in  regard  to  seeing  that  the  lish  a>"e  not 
interfered  with? 

The  ('hairman:  Yes,  your  ajjpoint- 
nient  is  in  a  i)urely  Pickwickian  sense. 
1  will  niipoiiit  Mr.  Bowman  from  New 
York,  Dr.  Sweeny  from  ^Minnesota,  Mr. 
Keyes  on  behalf  of  the  fishermen,  Mr. 
AFcDonald  on  Ixdialf  of  the  fishermen, 
Dr.  Parker,  of  Michigan,  Mr.  ()sl)orn,  of 
Ohio — lie  has  left  unforttniately,  I  lind. 

Dr.  Sweeny:  .Mr.  Chairman,  if  my  col- 
league, Mr.  Andrus,  will  take  my  place 
on  that  connnittce  I  will  be  very  glad  to 
hav(  him  do  so,  because  he  is  perfectly 
familiar  with  all  the  laws,  having  re- 
cently studied  them,  and  he  knows  what 
the  other  states  liave  done. 

The  Chairman:  The  Chair  wiudd  bt 
very  happy  to  e.veuse  Dr.  Sweeny  if  the 
circumstances  were  not  such  that  he 
cannot  do  so,  hi'  therefore  will  appoint 
Mr.  .\:'drus  as  the  other  memlier  of 
that  committee  from  (Mmo.  i  will  sug. 
gest  tliat  this  comniittc  e  nniy  lall  an  in- 
formal meeting  at  the  close  of  this  ses- 
sion, so  that  they  may  have  the  advan- 
tage of  consultation  with  Mi.  Keyes, 
who  I  understand  is  going  away  to- 
morrow. I  will  also  appoint  Mr.  (ioulil 
from  Maine. 


Mr.  Bowman:  .Mr.  Secretarv.   1 


move 


Adjourned  to  December  21,  at  10  a.  m., 
ISlti'. 

AVkuxksdav,  Dec.  21,  1S02, 10  \.  m. 

Chairman  Wliitaker:  The  conference 
will  please  come  to  order.  Tlu^  special 
committee  that  war-  api)ointed  last  night 
is  not  (luite  ready  to  rejiort,  an<l  wi'  will 
leave  that  matter  as  deferred  business 
unti'  a  later  i)eriod  in  our  proceedings. 

There  are  two  or  three  other  matters 
that  we  can  take  up  for  consideration, 
and  among  them  1  would  call  your  at- 
tention to  the  fact  that  the  Minnesota 
commissioners  issueil  a  call  for  a  meet- 
ing of  the  coimui«sioners  of  AVisconsin, 
Minnesota,  North  and  Soutli  Dakota  and 
.Michigan  the  14th  of  this  month,  to 
which,  I  jn-esume,  many  of  you  gentle- 
men were  invited.  I  had  to  decline  at- 
tending the  meeting  myself  on  account  of 
business  engagements,  but  I  wrote  to  Mr, 
Andrus,  wliocalled  that  meeting,  that  we 
would  be  very  glad  to  learn  tlie  results  of 
tlieirmeetingand  invited  him  to  be  luire. 
If  it  is  the  pleasure  of  the  conference,  I 
will  ask  hiin  to  give  us  a  resume  of  what 
was  done  there. 

.Mr.  Andrus:  Mr.  ("hairman  and  (leii- 
tleiiien — As  your  chairman  has  stated, 
we  had  our  ((inf(>rence  and  we  l.ad  as 
rejiresentatives  there,  gentlemen  from 
Wisconsin  and  toe  two  Dakolas  ami 
Iowa.  After  considerable  consultation, 
I  hail  the  pleasure  of  drafting  a  bill.  It 
was  taken  up  and  read  section  by  sec- 
tion, and  adopted  with  some  minor 
aniendments,  and  the  character  of  the 
l)ill  in  reference  to  the  protection  of  lish 
and  game  in  the  difl'erent  states  inter- 
ested was  soineihing  like  this: 

We  lia<l  a  clause  delining  the  open  .-^I'a- 
sons  and   the    methods  of   ;:rosecntion. 


that  Mr.  AVhitaker  be  a' -o  ap])oiute<i  a      That  bill  is  to  be  introduced  simnitaiie 


member  of  that  comnutlee, 
Motion  carried. 


oiisly  in  the  ('idereut  legisatures,  and 
they  are  to  be  asked  to  pass  it  as  tl:e 
game  ami  lish  laws  governing  the  difl'er- 


The  Tresident :    Before  1   put  the  mo- 
tion   to  adjourn,   gentlemen,   I  want  to       ent  states  in  (piosticjii. 


av  that   t 


o-morrow  evening  a  number 


We  found  thcii'  was  great  unformitv 


of  the  citizens  of  I'etroit  have  prepared  oi'  sentiment  in  regard  to  s|)ring  shoot- 
for  your  ciitertainmen*  a  baii(|Uet,  and  iiig.  That  is  a  matter  that  interests  us 
Iheye.Niiect  each  one  of  you  gentlemen  .  more  in  those  states  than  the  matter  of 
to  be  present.  We  shall  be  rejoiced  to  lishing.  At  the  same  time,  the  tisli  in- 
terests   wi're   not    lost    sight    of.      The 


Bee  yi 


)ii  all. 


53 


spriiijr  shooting  I'l a UHo  wan  unaniiuoiixly 
a(!(>i>t('(i  as  the  souse  of  the  iiu'eting. 
Sj)riiii;  filiootin.Lr  should  he  aholished.  A 
jrood  many  of  our  sportsinen  friends 
feel  tliat  after  having  been  shut  up  all 
winter,  they  want  to  get  out  for  a  little 
airing  an<l  a  little  shooting  in  the  spring, 
hut  we  were  all  of  the  oi)inion  that  that 
sort  of  hutchery  slionld  he  abolished. 

The  matter  tiiat  interested  Wisconsin 
partienlurly  was  that  oi  trout  fishing, 
and  they  thert'  eoneluded  to  have  an 
o])en  season  frhm  the  1st  of  May  until 
tiu'  1st  of  Oetoher.  We  didn't  take  any 
art  ion  iijion  the  matter  of  the  com- 
nu'rcial  fisheries,  because  it  seenied  to 
us  it  should  be  left  to  this  confer- 
ence to  recommend,  and  we  would  be 
very  glad  to  incorporate  in  the  bill 
such  recoinmen<lations  as  are  agreed 
upon  here.  We  all,  however,  agree  that 
Wisconsin  and  Minnesota  should  have  a 
close  season  on  white  fish  and  all  the 
lish  in  Lake  Supcsrior.  We  alsoadoi)ted 
the  clause  that  theconinnttee  had  under 
consideration  last  night — the  returning 
to  the  water  of  small  fish  taken  in  the 
open  season.  It  has  been  a  matter  of 
serious  difliculty  in  the  enforcement  of 
the  laws  heretoforethat  thegamedealers 
of  the  markets  who  have  game  or  fish  for 
sale  who  have  been  arrested  declare  that 
it  has  been  taken  in  sf)me  adjoining 
state,  and  they  have  thus  been  enabled 
to  evade  prosecution  or  conviction.  So 
in  order  to  get  over  that  dirticulty,  we 
adoi)te<l  a  non-export  clause  in  our  bill, 
and  we  believe  we  have  it  pretty  tightly 
seweil  up. 

The  bill  we  ailoi)ted  was  the  result  of 
a  good  deal  of  study,  a  good  deal  of  con- 
sultation overall  the  ditliculties  we  have 
experienced  in  the  jiast  in  the  way  of 
prosecutions  ween<leavore(l  to  overcome 
them. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  1  am  sure  the  confer- 
ence apjireciate  the  kindiu'ss  of  tiu; 
gentlemen  rcpn'sentiug  this  association 
in  reporting  to  us  the  results  of  its  action, 
and  on  hciudf  of  the  conference,  1  thaid< 
Mr.  ,\ndrus  for  his  report. 

Mr.  HampNiu:  I  wouM  like  to  iminire 
*  if  the  hill  was  uuule  to  cov«'r  the  entire 


(piestion,  or  did  you  calculate  on  sepa- 
rate bills? 

Mr.  Andrus:  No,  sir;  the  entire  (|ues- 
tion  concerning  both  game  and  lish. 
I  have  a  <'opy  of  the  bill  with  uu',  so 
that  I  can  tell  you  anything  you  want 
to  know  about  the  particuiars. 

Mr.  Hampton:  You  say  you  have  a 
non-export  law;  have  you  any  <'lause 
with  reference  to  the  sale  of  the  game? 

Mr.  Andrus:  Yes,  sir;  let  me  read 
that  clause.  "No  person  at  anytime 
shall  catch,  take  or  kil',  or  have  in  his 
possession  or  under  his  control  any  bird, 
animal  or  tish  in  this  stat«'— "  We  use 
those  words,  "birds,  animals  and  fish  "' 
in  every  section,  knowingly,  and  with 
the  intent  to  cover  it  without  specifying 
each  individual  or  kind  of  birds,  ani- 
mals or  tisli.  Heretofore  a  good  numy 
of  the  acts  have  simply  said,  "  the  birds 
included  herein,"  or  "  tlu-  tish  included 
herein,"  or  "herein  named,"  ami  the 
penalties  and  nu'thods  of  carrying  out 
the  law  have  dashed  somewhat.  So 
we  used  thojse  words.  I  will  read  the 
whole  section. 

Mr.  Andrus  then  read  the  section  re- 
ferred to. 

Mr.  Hampton:  I  would  iu<|uire  if  you 
havt^  any  clause  regulating  the  sale  of 
the  game  legally  killed  in  the  state? 
What  jiosition  do  you  take  in  regard  to 
that? 

Mr.  Andrus:  We  pennit  the  sale  in 
seasons  that  are  ojien. 

Mr.  Hampton:  That  would  prevent 
the  sale  out  of  season,  of  c<un>e,  but 
during  the  season? 

Mr.  Andrus:   Yes, sir;  that  is  covered. 

Mr.  Hampton:  Is  there  any  provision 
nuide  for  searching  a  man  by  the  game 
and  fish  warden  where  there  is  reason  to 
believe  or  to  suspe-t  a  man  has  been 
poaching?  Can  you  go  through  anum's 
game  bag? 

Or.  Andrus:  Yes,  sir;  that  is  covered 
by  this  section  "(!rate,  basket,  locker  or 
package  to  be  broken  oi)en  and  tlie  con- 
tents examined." 

Mr.  Hampton:  Do  you  sup|i(ise  that 
would  cover  a  man's  game  bag? 

Mr.  Andrus:   Yes,  sir;  we  are  so  ail- 


( 


54 


vised.  The  wonl  "  |»iU'ka}j;e  "  cdvers  a 
<,'()(t(I  iiuiuy  things. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  >Sonit'  i)t'oi)le  have  very 
large  jiockets;  doeH  it  inchide  them? 

Mr.  AndruH:  It  may  be  tliat  it  wonUl 
not  cover  that,  hut  we  are  advised  it 
woidd  cover  even  that. 

^Fr.  Hampton:  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I 
have  found  in  my  own  experience  that 
when  a  bhilf  will  hang  all  light  you  can 
go  through  a  man's  lish  basket  orjiis 
game  bag,  but  if  lie  happens  to  be  j)osted 
on  the  hiw  you  are  not  going  to  do  tliat. 
1  believe  there  should  be  some  arrange- 
ment of  this  kind:  if  you  have  a  law 
covering  the  taking  of  trout  under  six 
incites  in  length,  I  do  not  think  you  can 
be  sure  of  tho  enforcement  of  the  law 
until  you  have  an  authority  similiar  to 
the  military  authority  exercised  in  the 
Yellowstone  Park.  There  a  person  real- 
izes he  is  liable  to  be  searched  at  any 
time.  AVhen  an  American  citizen  de- 
l)ends  upon  his  rights  of  citizenship  and 
will  not  permit  a  search,  the  ofhcer  takes 
his  own  chance  of  searching  him  until 
he  has  taken  out  his  search  warrant  and 
he  is  pretty  .secure,  but  if  he  has  trout  in 
his  pocket,  and  you  are  al)Solutely  cer- 
tain of  it,  by  the  time  you  get  your  war- 
rant he  is  gone.  It  seems  to  me  until 
you  get  .something  covering  that  your 
law  will  bo  ineff'ective. 

Dr.  (iould:  1  would  like  to  ask  the 
gentleman  from  ^Minnesota  if  he  has  any 
clause  in  his  law  in  regard  to  Hsh  in  tran- 
sit, and  if  so,  if  you  have  taken  into  con- 
sideration the  eflfect  of  the  Inter-State 
Commerce  Act? 

-Mr.  Andrus:  We  [)ermit  the  shipment 
of  I'sh  through  the  state,  or  the  ship- 
ment of  game  through  the  state,  from 
one  Board  of  Fish  or  (ianie  C'oinmission- 
I'rs,  consigned  to  another  lioani  of  Com- 
missioners. 

Dr.  (iould:  1  had  reference  to  contra- 
band goods. 

Mr.  Andrus:  We  Hci/c  them  in  our 
state,  and  make  the  owner  prove  they 
•ire  lawful. 

Dr.  Gould:  We  have  had  a  good  deal 
of  trouble  in  Maine,  poachers  relying  on 
the  Inter-State  Commerce  Act. 


Mr.  Andrus:  We  have  had  a  decision 
on  that  point  by  the  Supreme  Court. 
Any  game  that  is  unlawfully  taken  is 
contraband,  and  is  not  subject  to  the  In- 
ter-State Commerce  Act.  That  is  l\w 
Su[)reme  Court  decision  of  Arkansas, 
Illinois,  Massachusetts  an<l  Kansas.  The 
point  was  raised  that  a  man  had  juris- 
diction over  his  own  i)roperty  ))y  reason 
of  th(i  Inter-State  Commerce  Act,  but 
the  Supreme  (Courts  have  said  the  prop- 
erty was  not  his  own  and  was  not  sub- 
ject to  the  law  in  that  way. 

The  Conference  instructed  me  to  have 
a  few  copies  of  that  act  priute(,l  and  dis- 
tributed. We  adopted  a  fish  shutedause, 
and  we  took  the  Illinois  law  bodily. 

That  is  a  matter  that  interests  us  more 
particularly. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  The  difficulty  with  fish 
shutes  in  this  state  is  the  loose  way  it  is 
left  to  be  enforced.  It  is  practically  a 
dead  letter.  It  now  requires  a  jH'tition 
of  twelve  freeholders  to  the  board  of  su- 
pervisors, and  they  order  it  in  their  dis- 
cretion. 

Mr.  Andrus  :  The  control  of  the  navi- 
gable streams  where  fish  are,  and  where 
dams  are  erected,  is  wholly  under  tlu? 
control  of  the  Board  of  Game  and  Fish 
Commissioners  in  our  state,  and  in  this 
bill  it  will  be  jtut  under  the  same  con- 
trol. This  bill  authorizes  the  fish  com- 
missioners to  compel  the  building  of  a 
Hsh  way,  and  the  penalty  of  non-i)er- 
formance  is  ten  dollars  a  day  for  not  to 
exceed  25  days  for  each  day's  omLssion, 
after  the  proper  legal  notification  has 
been  given. 

Mr.  Gould:  We  have  a  similar  law  to 
that  in  Maine,  ami  we  have  foun<l  it 
worked  very  nicely.  During  the  past 
two  years  the  mill  owners  have  volun- 
teered to  i»ut  in  the  lish  ways. 

Mr.  Andrus:  In  Minnesota  waters  we 
have  put  in  something  likeHhirty-.seven 
lish  ways  during  the  past  year  that  had 
not  existed  before. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  What  tisli  pass  do  you 
list-  ? 

Mr.  Andrus:  We  useanythingadaptecl 
to  the  stream.  We  do  not  use  any  par- 
ticular form.      The  Fish  Commissionei* 


56 


of  Iowa,  Mr.  (^raigs,  lias  a  plan  of  his 
own  wliicfi  ('f)mniends  itself  to  my  jndfr- 
mcnt  as  beiuf^  the  most  feasihle  and 
least  expensive  of  any. 

Mr.  Whitakcr:  Is  it  i)atented? 

-Mr.  Andnis:  No,  sir;  it  is  not  ))atent- 
t'd.  The  la>  piovi(l(!s  that  we  shall  not 
he  ((tnipelled  to  use  any  patenti'il  de- 
vice. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Wc  have  one  that  was 
introductfd  of  late  that  8uper.«edes  any- 
Ihini;  we  have  before  seen.  And  if  any 
f?entlcman  of  this  eonferencte  is  desirous 
of  jiettinfj;  the  latest  ini]»rovements  in 
this  line,  1  should  Ite  most  hapi)y  to  send 
him  a  plan  of  the  same,  and,  if  jjossihle, 
to  send  a  model. 

Mr.  W'litaker:   Is  it  the  Hoekin  way? 

3Ir.  Wilmot:    Yes;  it  is  the  Hoekin. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  And  a  very  jjood  (me, 
too. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Yes;  it  is  a  very  good 
one.  We  consider  it  the  very  best  we 
have  ever  seen. 

Mr.  Whitaker :  I  will  say  the  Michigan 
Fish  Commission  will  make  an  applica- 
tion now  for  a  plan.  We  are  now  con- 
sidering the  (piestion  of  the  adoption  of 
a  new  fish-way. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Then  I  will  re(|Uest  yo\i 
to  drop  me  a  line  at  Ottawa,  as  it  may  slip 
my  memory,  but  if  you  will  semi  me  a 
letter,  I  will  see  that  you  are  sent  a 
mudel. 

Mr.  Hampton:  One  other  trouble  in 
Michi^ran  has  been,  as  tlu'  chairman  has 
related,  that  the  law  provides  that  the 
Fish  Commissioners  shall  furnis  i  county 
clerks  and  those  \\\u)  apply,  drafts  and 
plans  of  the  tlsh  ways,  and  we  have  as 
yet  no  plan  of  fish  way  that  would  be 
suitable  to  our  streama.  I  believe  that 
Dr.  Parker,  on  different  occasions,  has 
made  that  answer  to  me,  that  they  are 
I'dt  adapted  to  ditlerent  stages  of  water. 
I  am  interested  in  this  subject,  although 
it  is  not  in  my  department.  It  is  left  to 
the  board  of  supervisiu-s  of  the  diflerent 
counties  instead  of  the  (iameand  Fish 
Warden.  In  nninv  cases  a  (isli  way 
would  have  been  ;i  opted  if  there  had 
been  a  way  the  Fish  Commissioners 
could  recoinntend. 


Mr.  Sweeny:  In  Minnesota  they  have 
a  variety  of  ways  of  making  these  shutes, 
one  of  which  is  to  put  in  the  bottom  of 
the  stream  a  lot  of  brush,  and  upon  it 
erect  a  dam  to  control  the  waters.  The 
tish  have  an  opportunity  to  get  up  over 
that  1)rush. 

Dr.  Parker:  In  Michigaa  thediflicnlty 
has  been  in  regard  to  the  varying  stages  of 
water.  It  is  easy  enough  to  make  a  lisli 
way  that  would  run  nicely  enough  at 
one  stage  of  water.  It  has  been  success- 
ful where  there  has  been  a  particular 
stage  of  water,  but  you  come  to  pile  on 
top  of  that,  at  a  time  when  tish  are  run- 
ning most,  four  or  five  feet  of  water,  and 
you  have  the  conditions  entirely 
changed.  On  that  account  we  haven't  a 
tish  shnte  that  we  can  recommend  for 
every  case  in  which  itmight  be  desirable 
to  put  in  a  shute. 

Mr.  Wilmot :  The  tish  way  now  con- 
structed by  the  Donnnion  (iovernment 
is  a  most  efficient  one,  and  is  quite  the 
reverse  of  what  the  old  ones  were.  The 
entrance  of  the  tish  way  is  at  the  foot  of 
the  structure,  and  it  empties  itself  up  in 
the  middle  of  the  mill  i»ond.  The  didi- 
culty  hitherto  has  been  that  the  end  of 
the  pass  has  been  wiy  down  somewhere, 
where  the  fish  will  not  enter  it,  they 
come  u])  under  the  dam,  where  they  are 
destroyed.  The  entrance  should  be  right 
by  the  dam  itself,  and  they  are  generally 
placed  below. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  There  is  no  question 
about  that.  The  exi)erience,  I  think,  of 
every  one  who  has  had  occasion  to  in- 
vestigate fish  ways  is  that  the  discharge 
end  is  at  the  wrong  place.  The  fish  will 
run  up  to  the  apron  of  the  dam,  and  as 
a  rule,  this  is  quite  a  ways  from  where 
the  fish  ways  usually  are,  and  they  <lo 
not  get  up  the  fish  way  at  all.  The  stat- 
utes of  this  state  i)rovide<l,  because  they 
w(>re  passed  something  like  1")  or  20  years 
ago   -how  long  ago  is  it.  Dr.  Parker? 

Dr.  Parker:  I  think  it  is  seventeen 
years  ago. 

Mr.  Whitaker  (continuing):  That  the 
lioanl  of  Fish  ('ommissioners  should 
adopt  some  suitable  fish  way,  and  pub- 
lish   a  certain  numher  of  lithographed 


50 


copies,  HiilHcient  to  lile  with  every  town- 
HJiip  clerk.  Tiiat  was  done.  But,  as  all 
township  records  are  subject  to  so  inanv 
chancres  by  chan^Jie  of  clerks,  1  prosunic 
they  were  lost  or  destroyed. 

I'mloiibtedly  at  the  time  tliis  fish  way 
was  adopted  it  was  tiie  best  then  con- 
structed. It  is  the  old  Shaw  iisli  way, 
but  I  do  not  think  it  is  of  any  acicount 
at  all.  The  Michifjan  Hoard  of  Fish 
(V)nunissioners  liave  had  application 
from  certain  mend)ersof  the  Legislature, 
I  tliink  for  the  last  tliree  or  four  ses- 
sions, to  suffgest  laws  that  will  compel 
lish  ways  to  be  put  in.  We  iiave  taken 
a  very  small  interest  in  the  matter  as  a 
commission,  because  the  only  thing  we 
<'ould  do  was  tosav  there  is  the  Shaw  lish 
way,  the  only  one  we  can  put  in.  It  is 
of  little  account,  and  we  have  no  means 
of  securing  another.  Mr.  Rogers  has  a 
fisii  way,  J  believe,  that  is  well  sj)oken 
of.  1  bilieve  there  is  one  in  the  Hud- 
son Hiver  at  Troy.  The  trouble  with 
Mr.  Rogers'  shute  is  that  it  is  too  expen- 
sive for  even  the  State  of  Michigan  un- 
der any  circumstances.  The  only  places 
where  tish  ways  can  be  ])ut  in  will  be 
where  dams  have  been  swept  out  and 
must  be  replaced,  or  where  new  ones  are 
being  c(mstructed. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  In  regard  to  this  subject 
of  lish  ways  I  would  like  to  say  a  word, 
for  it  is  a  matter  of  vital  importance 
w  ith  reganl  to  the  j)reservation  and  pro- 
l)agation  of  lish.  The  mill  dams  have 
l)een  found  throughout  our  country  and 
I  tldnk,  tliroughout  the  United  States, 
one  of  tlie  principal  barriers  to  tlie  fish 
going  up  to  their  breeding  grounds. 

I  may  state  in  regard  to  this  pass  1 
iuxve  reference  to  that  it  consumes  less 
water  than  any  other  we  have  had  ex- 
perience v.itli.  The  outlet  at  the  lower 
end  of  the  dam  need  not  be  a  hole  of 
more  tlian  three  or  four  inches,  and  the 
pressure  of  water  from  that  three  or 
four  inciies  is  no  greater  than  where  it 
enters  at  the  iiead  of  tlie  dam,  (ifty  or  a 
liundred  or,  perliaps,  one  hundred  and 
lifty  feet  furtiier  up.  The  tish  can  swim 
through  without  any  obstruction  what- 
ever. 


])r.  I'arkt^-:  Have  you  tried  it  prac- 
tically so  tiiat  you  know  it  is  successful. 
Have  you  seen  iish  ])ass  through  ? 

^Ir.  Wilmot:  The  government  re- 
ferred tiie  matter  to  me,  and  1  said  1 
would  give  no  opinif)n  on  a  fish  shute, 
as  I  had  seen  so  many  of  tliem  tiiat 
were  worthless,  unless  1  luul  o(!idiir 
demonstration  of  tlieir  success.  1  sent 
an  efhcient  and  trusty  man  to  go  there 
and  watch  this  i)ass,  and  lie  reports  h<' 
saw  them  go  up. 

Dr.  Parker:  Thej  miglit do  tluit  under 
favorable  circumstances.  Tlie  Shaw  jiass 
worked  perfectly  with  the  model  we 
lia<l,  but  wiien  we  put  it  in  a  dam  where 
the  water  was  greater  in  volume  the 
whole  thing  was  changed. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  This  was  put  in  the  dam 
itself,  and  was  found  to  work  perfectly. 
And  I  wish  to  say  in  this  connection 
that  Mr.  Hawkins  sent  me  sworn  state- 
ments of  tish  wardens  who  liad  iiad 
charge  of  this  lisli  way  on  difl'erent 
streams,  with  the  number  of  fish  pass- 
ing up,  so  that  it  seems  to  be  a  perfect 
success. 

Mr.  Bowman  :  The  special  committee 

that  was  appointed  last  night  is  reatly 

to  report,  and  begs  leave  to  submit  tiie 

following: 

Detroit,  Dec.  21st,  iSy2. 
To  the  Fishi'ries  CaiifcrcHCC  : 

Gentlemen— Your  committee,  to  whom  was 
referred  the  <|ue.stiou,  "  whether  or  not  there 
should  be  a  close  season  for  white  fish,  lake  or 
salmon  trout  and  herring-,"  also  what  means 
should  be  taken  for  their  protection,  would  re- 
port : 

ist.  All  small  fish  and  those  unfit  for  food  of 
all  kinds  when  taken  in  nets,  should  be  replaced 
in  the  water  where  taken  alive,  and  that  fisher- 
men should  not  be  allowed  to  take  such  fish  un 
shore,  nor  expose  them  for  sale. 

2nd.  That  no  string  pound  of  nets  used  in  the 
lakes  shall  extend  more  tlriii  four  miles  from 
shore. 

3rd.  That  one-half  part  of  all  channels  be- 
tween islands  or  elsewhere  where  fisli  iiiigrnte 
to  .spawn,  shall  be  kept  free  from  nets  of  all  kinds 
at  all  seasons. 

■Ith.  That  all  white  fish  taken  of  less  than 
sixteen  inches  in  length,  and  all  salmon  trout 
less  than  two  pounds  in  weight  shall  be  imme- 
diately returned  to  the  waters  where  taken  and 
shall  not  be  exposed  for  sale.  That  all  herring 
less  than  eight  inches  in  length,  and  all  wall- 
eyed  pike  less  than   twelve  inches   in  leiigtli, 


m 


shall  l)c  returned  to  the  waters  where  taken  and 
shall  not  be  exposed  for  sale. 

5th.  That  the  month  of  Novemberin  each  year 
be  made  a  clo.se  season  in  all  the  great  lakes  for 
white  fish,  herring  and  salmon  or  lake  trout. 

Your  committee  would  further  recommend 
that  all  penalties  fixed  for  violations  of  any  laws 
that  shall  be  enacted  shall  be  made  not  only  to 
ajjply  to  those  i«-ho  take  fish,  but  also  to  all  per- 
sons who  buy,  sell,  transport  or  have  the  same 
in  possession. 

The  ist,  2nd,  3rd  and  4th  recommendations 
were  unanimously  adopted  by  your  committee. 

Tlu' fifth  recoiuiiuMidation,  makinj?  the 

month  of  Novemberin  each  yearaoloHe 

season  for  wliite  fish,  salmon  trout  and 

herring  was  adopted,  all  the  members 

voting  "  aye  "  except  Mr.  Keyes,  from 

Oliio,  who  voted  in  the  negative. 

Ri'solved.  That  the  law  should  authorize  the 
seizure  and  destruction  of  nets  used  in  violation 
of  law. 

Mr.  Ani«den:  Was  any  consideration 
taken  of  tlie  size  of  mesh  in  gill  nets? 

Mr.  Bowman :  No,  that  was  not  con- 
§iden;d.  No  recommendation  was  made 
by  the  ccjmmittee  in  that  regard  at  all. 

Mr  Sweeny:  1  move  its  adoption. 

Dr.  Gould:  I  will  second  it. 

Mr.  Speed:  I  would  suggest,  in  speak- 
ing of  the  length  of  net,  four  miles  from 
shore,  that  tliat  should  be  amended; 
that  when  one  net  is  set  another  shall 
not  be  set  at  a  certain  distance,  or  they 
will  evade  the  law. 

Mr.  Keyes :  1  will  say  that  my  idea  of 
the  distance  from  shore  was  not  to  pre- 
vent iish  from  running,  but  to  leave  a 
channel  open  for  a  large  proportion  of 
the  fish  to  pass  by.  I  do  not  think  it 
makes  any  diflerence  whether  you  have 
nets  set  close  to  one  another  or  not. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  1  do  not  tpiite  under- 
stand it,  and  1  would  like  to  have  that 
portion  of  the  report  read  again. 

The  Secretary  read  the  portion  of  the 
report  as  reijuested. 

Mr.  Keyes:  That  does  not  cover  my 
idea  at  all.  My  idea  was  that  it  should 
not  be  permitted  beyond  a  distance  of 
four  miles.  I  think  the  phraseology  <ioes 
not  express  the  idea.  I  think  the  com- 
mittee meaiLS  that  the  gang  siiould  not 
be  more  than  four  miles  long. 

Mr.  Huntington:  I  move  then  that  it 


be  amended  to  read  "that  no  pound  net 
shall  extend  more  than  four  miles  from 
the  shore." 

Till'  motion  was  duly  seconded. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  understand  then  that 
the  motion  is  to  change  "  that  all  pound 
nets  used  on  the  lakes  shall  not  be  more 
than  four  miles  in  length  including  lead- 
ers," to  read  this  way,  "  that  all  pound 
nets  used  in  the  lakes  shall  not  extend 
more  than  four  miles  from  shore."  That 
would  virtually  prohibit  all  fishing  with 
leaders  outside  of  the  four-mile  limit. 

The  Chairman:  Gentlemen,  are  there 
any  remarks  on  the  amendment? 

Mr.  Green :  1  think  it  would  be.  well  to 
designate  the  length  of  a  leader.  That 
the  wiiole  length  of  the  net  shall  be  four 
miles,  and  that  the  leader  shall  not  be 
more  than  four  miles  f  >m  shore.  The 
way  it  is  now,  a  man  miglit  construct 
a  net  20  miles  long  and  not  have  a  leader 
four  miles  froiu  shore. 

Mr.  Keyes:  It  is  absolutely  impossi- 
ble to  fish  parallel  with  the  shore.  They 
can  only  tish  at  right  angles  with  the 
shore. 

Mr.  Amsden:  Why  not  include  gill 
nets  in  this  clause? 

Mr.  Keyes :  I  am  in  favor  of  absolutely 
prohibiting  gill  netting.  1  will  tell  you 
that  right  here. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  I  think  it  is  a  very  good 
thing  that  this  (piestion  has  been  brought 
up.  Some  say  you  cannot  fish  parallel 
with  the  shore,  but  at  the  mouth  of 
rivers  and  in  bays  nets  ari^  set  at  right 
angles  to  the  shore,  and  it  forms  a  very 
destructive  engine  for  taking  fish. 

Mr.  IJowman:  1  tiiiiik  most  of  the  fish- 
ing at  the  jnoutii  of  rivers  is  done  by  gill 
nets. 

The  Chairman:  Tlic  Chair  is  prepared 
to  entertain  any  amemlment,  if  any  is 
desired  to  this  report.  The  report  now 
is  in  the  hands  of  the  conference. 

Mr.  I'ost:  It  is  easy  enough  to  add  the 
clause  with  reference  to  the  length  of 
leaders. 

Mr.  Keyes:  That  is  all  right,  but  I 
will  ask  wiiich  one  of  you  gentlemen 
know  how  long  a  leader  ought  to  be? 

.Mr.  Post :   I  say  add  the  clause  that  the 


58 


loader  should  not  be  more  than  four 
miles  long. 

Mr.  Andrns.  I  will  ofl'er  an  amend- 
ment that  all  pound  nets  shall  not  ex- 
(!eed  four  miles  in  length  including  lead- 
ens. 

Mr.  Amsden:  Then  the  amendments 
AVouM  read,  "That  all  pounds  nets  used 
in  tiie  lakes  shall  not  extend  more  than 
four  miles  from  the  shore,  and  all  pound 
nets  used  on  the  lakes  shall  not  be  more 
than  four  miles  long,  including  leaders. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  Wduld  leave  that  last  ofi", 
because  nobody  ever  fished  with  a  lead- 
er four  miles  long,  or  one  mile  long,  or 
a  quarter  mile  long,  hardly. 

Dr.  Gould:  What  would  be  the  ob- 
jection to  it  then?  It  would  be  harm- 
less. 

Mr.  Keyes:  It  is  simply  irrelevant, 
that  is  all.  They  would  think  we  didn't 
understand  our  business. 

Mr'  Whitaker :  It  seems  to  me  you  are 
embaria.ssing  the  whole  thing  by  ampli- 
fying it.  I  would,  however,  suggest  that 
the  word  "string"  be  put  in  instead  of 
the  words  "  pound  nets." 

The  amendment  was  then  put  to  the 
conference  an<l  unanimously  carried. 

The  resolution  as  amended  was  then 
unanimously  adopted. 

The  Chairman :  The  next  matter  to  be 
discussed  is  close  seasons  fo»  brook  trout, 
grayling,  California  trout,  brown  trout, 
J.och  Lcven  trout,  land-locked  salmon 
and  small-mouthed  ba.ss.  I  think  there 
is  no  objection  to  the  close  season  now 
in  force  for  all  those  fish,  unless  it  be 
black  bass.  Mr.  Bowman,  have  you  any 
close  season  for  black  bass  in  New  York  ? 

Mr.  Bowman:  I  am  not  certain  about 
that.  I  will  look  it  up.  Yes.  For  black 
bass,  or  Oswego  bass,  the  close  season  is 
between  thelirstday  of  January  and  the 
first  day  of  May. 

Mr.  Andrus:  In  Minnesota  it  is  from 
the  first  day  of  December  until  the  fif- 
teenth of  May. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  I  think  we  have  a  close 
season  in  Michigan. 

Mr.  Hampton :  There  is  a  ♦•lose  sea- 
son, although  they  can  be  taken  at  any 
time  with  a  iiook  and  line.      The  only 


close  jeason  lain  regard  to  spearing,  an<l 
that  is  practically  nugatory. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  In  Canada  that  would 
be  perfectly  useless.  The  fifteenth  of 
June  is  our  ending,  but  we  find  even 
that  is  too  early.  We  shouhl  extend  it 
to  the  first  day  of  July.  The  black  bass 
recpiires  a  longer  season;  it  is  so  solicit- 
ous of  its  egg  and  of  its  young.  The 
parent  fish  remains  with  its  young  for 
some  time  after  they  are  hatched,  hence 
it  is  my  experience  as  a  close  observer 
of  these  things  generally,  that  the  close 
season  should  extend  to  the  first  day  of 
July. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  I  want  to  say  that,  so 
far  as  the  American  waters  are  concerned, 
at  the  St.  Clair  Flats  there  is  litth^  fish, 
ing  done  before  the  15th  of  June,  and 
those  that  are  taken  are  usually  taken  ofi" 
the  spawning  beds,  and  their  flesh  is  in- 
sipid and  of  no  account.  I  had  as  soon 
have  a  piece  of  bob  veal  as  to  have  a 
black  bass  that  is  caught,  for  instance,  at 
the  Put-in-Bay  Islands  in  May  or  June. 

They  are  tasteless,  and  if  the  limit  is 
fixed  it  seems  to  me  it  ought  to  be  not 
later  than  the  loth  of  June.  .Fudge 
Speed  is  much  interested  in  the  ])ro})ii- 
gation  of  fish  and  their  protection,  and 
no  doubt  the  conference  would  be  glad 
to  hear  from  him. 

Judge  Speed :  I  don't  know  as  I  have 
anything  to  say  in  addition  to  wiiat 
other  gentlemen  have  said.  But  I  think 
spearing  ought  to  be  stopped  more  than 
fishing  by  any  other  means.  There  is  a 
gentleman  here  from  Chatham  w'^'  wu- 
speaking  of  fishing  over  in  Mitchell's 
Bay.  Similar  conditions,  I  think,  pre- 
vail on  our  side.  Mitchell's  Bay  is  a 
part  of  what  is  called  St.  Clair  Flats,  not 
fj  ■  from  Chatham.  The  fish  run  in 
there  in  weter  that  is  not  more  than 
three  or  four  feet  deep,  where  you  can 
see  the  bdttom  readily  at  any  time,  and 
where  they  lay  their  eggs,  stay  there  for 
a  time,  and  watch  them,  and  they  go 
there,  on  our  side  at  any  rate,  and  spear 
in  large  numbers,  because  they  can  see 
them  readily  and  get  at  them.  They  go 
there  as  early  in  the  spring  as  they  can 
go   and   continui'  s|)earing  right  along. 


69 


It  oiijrlit  to  he  stoi»pc'd  because  the  large 
iimul>ert)f  thone  fish  caught  there  are 
ahiioHt  useless  for  any  purpose.  In  ad- 
flition  to  that  they  troll  on  those 
grounds,  and  large  numberH  of  fish  are 
canght  in  tiiat  way.  They  troll  with 
fpoon  hooks  and  also  witii  minnows,  and 
they  catch  Hsh  as  late  as  July  on  those 
spawning  grounds.  Then  they  are  just 
coniniencing  to  run  off  in  deep  water — 
between  the  l")th  of  June  and  the  1st  of 
July.  Very  many  of  the  (ish  are  large, 
and  I  would  like  to  see  that  sort  of 
thing  stopped,  if  it  is  possible,  or  the 
taking  of  any  kind  of  fish  on  spawning 
grounds.  I  would  H>:  the  period  as  late 
as  the  loth  of  June,  rather  than  the  1st 
of  June  or  the  loth  of  May,  because  tlien 
you  would  insure  the  stopping  of  fishing 
on  those  spawning  grounds.  Of  course, 
in  some  waters  you  can  fix  the  period 
much  earlier,  but  in  our  water  they 
spawn  late  in  the  season. 

I  was  not  present  yesterday,  but  I  am 
very  sorry  to  learn  that  the  conference 
adopted  a  resolution  limiting  the  taking 
of  fish  by  the  weight  rather  than  the 
size.  Because  I  think  you  will  find  in 
this  state,  and  I  think  too,  in  Canada, 
that  all  (juestions  of  fact  must  go  to  a 
jury,  and  when  you  come  to  submit  that 
(luestion  to  a  jury,  you  will  find  that 
the  weigiit  of  fish  is  so  hard  to  determine 
that  tliey  will  find  in  favor  (»f  the  party 
complained  of.  If  j'ou  fix  on  the  size  of 
fish  you  have  something  at  which  they 
can  get  at.  Almost  anybody  can  tell  the 
length  of  a  fish  within  one  or  two  inches 
by  sight,  but  not  so  by  weight.  You 
never  have  scales  present,  and  you  leave 
a  loop  hole  where  many  peoi)le  escape. 
If  you  fix  the  size  of  fish,  and  say  tliat 
fish  of  a  certain  length,  no  matter  what 
it  weighed,  it  shall  go  back  in  th?  water, 
you  fix  something  that  will  be  definite, 
and  almost  any  one  can  determine  it 
with  the  eye.  If  you  fix  it  by  weight, 
the  (juestion  will  be  asked  before  the 
jury,  "Did  you  have  any  scales?  Do 
you  know  anything  about  the  v.'eight  of 
tluit  fisii?"  And  you  will  find  any 
(pumtity  of  fish  will  ^o  to  the  market 
on  weight,  where  you  can  very  readily 


determine  by  the  eye  on  size.  It  may 
be  arbitrary,  because  one  fish  of  a  cer- 
tain length  will  weigh  more  than  an- 
other fish  of  a  certain  length,  but  you 
arrive  at  it  close  enough  for  all  practical 
purposes,  for  the  purpose  of  conviction, 
and  that  is  what  you  want  to  get  at. 

Mr.  Hampton:  I  believe  that  sugges- 
tion is  a  wise  one,  for  I  have;  found  it  so 
in  practical  experience,  and  I  think  it 
would  be  well  to  reconsider  that  (|ue.s- 
tion  "ud  submit  an  amendment  that 
will  cover  the  weight  as'well  as  the  size 
desired. 

Judge  Speed:  No  white  fish  of  less 
than  twelve  or  fifteen  or  twenty  inches 
in  length,  whatever  you  may  determine 
upon,  and  then  you  will  iiave  .something 
definite  upon  which  to  go. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Allow  nie  to  suggest  as 
the  conference  is  going  down  to  Sand- 
Wa-Ii  hatchery  they  might  have  ocular 
demonstration  of  the  length  of  fish,  be- 
cause there  are  a  number  of  white  fish 
there,  and  we  might  better  come  to  a 
conclusion  as  to  the  right  length  of  fish. 
I  perfectly  agree  with  the  gentleman. 

Judge  Speed:  You  can  get  at  it  by 
taking  a  number  of  fish  and  weighing 
tiiem,  and  then  determine  their  length, 
and  you  will  fin<l  they  won't  vary  an 
inch.  There  is  then  something  al)so- 
lutely  certain  to  go  upon,  and  fish  less 
than  fifteen  inches  in  length  shall  not 
be  taken  under  any  circumstances. 

.Mr.  Hampton:  In  order  to  bring  the 
matter  up  I  move  you  that  we  recon- 
sifler  the  report  of  the  committee  on  the 
size  of  white  fish  taken. 

Mr.  Hampton's  UKjtion  was  seconiled 
and  unanimously  adopted. 

Dr.  Parker:  1  move  you  this  (juestion 
be  postponed  until  af*^"r  we  return  fnjiii 
our  trip  down  the  river,  so  that  we  can 
there  determine  as  to  the  proper  length 
of  fish,  unless  we  can  determine  right 
here.  Perhaps  Mr.  Keyes  could  tell  us. 
What  we  want  to  get  is  the  length  of  the 
pound-and-a-half  fish. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  I  will  ask  Mr.  (^raig, 
who  is  a  practical  fisherman,  to  give  us 
some  information  on  this  point. 

Mr.   Craig:   I   should   think   fourteen 


iiu'hos  SI  f^ood  lonjjtli  of  white  fish;  I 
flhoiiM  not  tliink  it  would  ^o  fifteen 
inciieH — that  is,  tlie  length  of  a  white 
fiwh  that  would  weigh  a  pound  and  a  half 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  think,  ahout  fourteen  or 
fifteen  inches. 

Mr.  Hampton:  1  move  you  tiien  to 
strike  out  the  words  "  pound  and  a  half," 
where  they  occur  in  the  resolution,  and 
substitute  "  fifteen  inches." 

Mr.  Whitaker:  It  seems  to  me  it  would 
he  a  very  easy  matter  to  determine  the 
length  of  a  pouhd  and  a  half  fish.  Mr. 
Craig  can  do  it.  T  don't  think  the  live 
fish  down  there  are  of  that  weight. 

Mr.  Keyes:  J  guess  there  are  very  lew 
Detroit  river  fish  that  will  weigh  two 
j)ounds. 

]Mr.  Whitaker:  Yes,  we  have  .sold  our 
catch  on  the;  average  of  two  and  a-half 
pour.  is.  TVe  Iiave  sold  our  entire  catch 
to  dealers  of  fish,  caught  on  the  Detroit 
river,  at  two  and  a  half  pounds  weight, 
the  weight  being  the  averaged. 

Mr.  Keyes:  That  is  bigger  than  they 
catch  them  now. 

Dr.  Parker:  I  desire  the  resolution 
laid  on  the  table.  It  would  be  a  good 
ol)ject  lesson  ;  we  might  learn  something 
about  the  weight  of  fisii  by  taking  some 
practical  oljservations  down  there. 

Mr.  Whitaker :  AVhat  would  be  the  ob- 
jection to  the  appointment  of  a  com- 
mittee of  three  to  determine  that  ques- 
tion and  report  to  us  immediately  upon 
our  return.  The  chair  will  entertain 
such  a  motion. 

It  was  moved  and  sui)ported  that  such 
a  committee  be  .appointed.  Duly  car- 
ried. 

Judge  Si)eed :  I  think,  gentlemen,  you 
will  probably  find  from  experience  that 
wall-eyed  pike,  of  which  large  numbers 
are  sent  here  from  Saginaw  Bay,  and 
perhaps  other  localities,  a  great  many  of 
them  are  smaller  in  sizv ,  and  you  will 
have  to  adopt  a  difl'erent  rule  in  regard 
to  them  than  to  white  fish.  You  should 
make  a  diflerence  in  weight  in  regard  to 
those  fish  as  well  as  a  diflerence   n  size. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  It  would  certainly  be 
a  good  idea,  and  another  thing  that  es- 
caped me  at  the  time:  it  might  be   a 


question,  under  a  prosecution,  whetiier 
it  was  the  weight  of  a  dressed  fish  f)r  the 
weight  of  a  green  fish.  The  Cliair  will 
appoint  on  that  committee,  to  rejiort  at 
once  on  our  return,  Dr.  Parker,  Judge 
S}>eed  and  Dr.  Sweeny. 

Judge  Speed :  I  don't  think  I  can  visit 
the  hatchery. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  I  will  then  appoint 
Mr.  Wilraot.  The  committee  will  con- 
sider that  matter  and  report  immediate- 
ly upon  our  return. 

Is  there  anything  further  to  be  done 
with  these  resolutions? 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  would  like  to  offer  an 
amenement  to  the  report  of  the  special 
committee.  I  move  you  that  all  gill  net 
fishing  be  prohibited  in  a  less  depth  of 
water  than  80  feet  in  all  waters. 

Mr.  Hampton:  For  the  sake  of  having 
that  so  we  can  consider  it,  I  support  the 
amendment,  and  move  that  it  lie  on  the 
table  until  the  other  matters  come  U]>. 

Mr.  Keyes:  The  reason  I  made  that 
motion  is  that  I  did  not  think  it  would 
come  up  before  this  conference  at  all, 
but  I  am  very  firmly  of  the  opinion  that 
gill  net  fishing,  as  practiced  now  on  all 
the  lakes,  is  a  great  destructive  force  in 
fitihing.  As  Mr.  Wilmot  here  has  said, 
he  has  seen  gill  net  fishing  in  the  pro-"" 
tected  waters  of  Canada,  whicli  is  a  fair 
sample  of  protection,  and  in  the  ileor- 
gian  Bay,  and  when  they  take  up  those 
nets  the  fish  are  absolutely  putrid  in 
the  nets,  dropping  from  the  nets  almost 
as  they  lift  them  up,  and  on  tlie  feeding 
grounds  where  they  fish,  and  wherever 
fish  live  during  the  summer,  when  they 
are  not  on  their  spawning  grounds,  the 
fish  taken  are  unfit  for  market,  and  but 
a  small  portion  of  Ihem  is  consumed. 
Their  talk  about  one  night  out  for  nets  is 
all  right,  but  the  gill  nets  are  usually  out 
three  or  four  nights,  and  the  fish  that 
run  in  first  are  the  fish  that  are  almost 
decayed.  In  80  feet  of  water  I  am  in  fa- 
vor of  absolute  prohibition,  and  the  gill 
nets  should  be  kept  off  the  reefs  which 
are  the  spawning  grounds  of  the  wiiite 
fish,  herring,  black  bass  and  other  fish  of 
that  kind.  .\t  present  they  go  on  these 
reefs  and  they  set  their  gill  nets  across 


01 


tlu!  luoiiMiH  of  rivers  ami  l)ays,  aiuli'vcry 
place  whore  fish  run  at  any  season  of  the 
year.  Tlie  fish  are  praetioally  {;iven  no 
rest  whatever  from  the  beginning  of  the 
season  to  the  end.  My  opinion  is  that 
tlie  ^'ill  nets  are  the  greatest  engine  of 
destruction  tliat  we  have  on  the  great 
chain  of  lakes.  Lake  Erie  is  the  last  lake 
in  the  chain  where  gill  netting  is  being 
carried  on.  Nearly  all  the  other  lakes 
had  been  depleted  of  fish  before  gill  net- 
ting })ecanie  popular,  and  until  within 
tlie  lasl.  two  or  three  years  it  was  con- 
lined  to  the  eastern  end  of  the  lake. 
There  was  very  little  gill  netting  west  of 
Cleveland.  It  was  all  done  in  Pennsyl- 
vania waters.  The  reason  for  this  was 
because  tliey  could  not  set  trap  nets  and 
catch  fish  in  apropei  way.  The  water  is 
so  deep  and  f;o  exposed  to  storms  and 
currents  that  only  a  limited  amount  of 
lisli  couhl  be  taken  in  trap  nets,  and  con- 
Ke(iuentlv,  they  excused  themselves  by 
saying,  if  you  prohibit  our  gill  netting 
we  cannot  lisii  at  all.  They  do  not  claim 
that  the  fish  are  fit  for  market,  but  they 
do  go  on  the  market,  and  they  answer 
the  purpose.  If  gill  netting  can  be  pro- 
liibited  on  the  reefs  and  shoal  water.",  and 
permitting  tlie  fish  to  get  on  the  reefs  at 
the  proper  time,  you  will  do  more,  in  my 
judgment,  towards  protecting  the  fisli  in 
tile  waters  of  tlie  lakes  than  by  any  other 
j resolution  you  maybe  able  to  pass.  I 
V^hink  it  will  be  far  ahead  of  the  close  sea- 
sons, except  you  made  an  absohito  close 
season  from  the  first  day  of  January  un- 
til the  31st  day  of  December.  Of  course 
that  would  help  tlit;  fisii.  Fish  might  be 
taken  f(^r  the  benefit  of  the  farmers. 
They  are  no  benefit  to  the  people;  the 
(juestion  is  to  take  them  when  they  are 
most  beneficial  to  tiie  people,  and  when 
tliey  can  be  given  to  them  in  the  most 
healthy  condition.  The  Hoards  of  Health 
of  the  various  states  have  investigated 
this  matter,  and  with  one  accord  they 
JKive  said  that  fisii  thus  taken  are  abso- 
lutely unwholesome  as  food.  I  venture 
to  say  there  is  not  a  single  dealer,  either 
catcher  or  handler  of  fish,  who  will  say 
to  this  association  that  if  he  could  get 


piMind  net  fish,  he  would  not  take  gill 
net  fish  under  any  circumstances. 

The  large  i)roduct  of  gill  net  fishing, 
especially  in  the  Canadian  waters,  out- 
side of  Lake  Erie,  and  also  in  the  iipi)er 
lakes,  on  the  American  side,  until  recent 
years,  was  a  salted  product.  The  mar- 
kets were  not  open  to  them  in  the  fresh 
condition.  Consequently  they  took  them 
in  great  numbers  and  salted  them.  They 
salted  all  kinds  of  fish,  and  the  consumer 
was  thereby  deceived,  as  he,  of  course, 
could  nf»t  know  what  the  condition  of 
the  fish  was  when  it  was  salted.  He  sup- 
posed he  was  getting  a  fresh  article, 
when  in  fact  he  was  getting  a  fish  that 
the  fisherman  would  not  eat,  when  taken 
from  the  nets,  on  his  table.  There  is 
not  a  man  who  is  practically  engageil  in 
the  business  but  what  will  say  there  isn't 
one  fish  out  of  ten  taken  in  gill  nets  that 
he  would  eat,  especially  in  the  summer. 
There  is  a  prejudice  against  gill  net  fish, 
and  they  are  put  on  the  market  at  the 
worst  season  of  the  year.  They  are 
caught  in  the  summer  months,  and  they 
are  placed  upon  the  market  very  seldom 
in  good  condition.  The  fish  are  con- 
stantly harassed  upon  their  breeding 
grounds  all  summer,  and  I  am  suri'  that 
it  tends  to  destroy  fisli  much  more  than 
when  taken  toward  the  end  of  the 
spawning  season.  Of  course  any  sort  of 
curtailing  of  fishing  will  assist  in  the  re- 
production. I  don't  care  what  y<»u  do 
to  aid  that. 

In  speaking  about  angling  for  black 
bass.  The  black  bass  has  been  exter- 
minated by  angling  more  than  by  any- 
thing else,  in  my  judgment,  and  I  think 
that  is  the  opinion  of  all  the  fishermen 
in  our  locality  at  least.  I  do  not  exi)ect 
it  will  ever  be  possible  t<j  get  law:  i)assed 
whicli  will  i)revent  gill  netting,  i)ut  if 
you  could  get  laws  passed  limiting  that, 
it  woidd  go  a  long  ways  toward  the  pro- 
action  of  fish.  As  long  as  that  system  is 
..  limited, and  they  can  .string  their  nets 
from  shore  to  shore  on  any  lake,  it  is  ut- 
terly useless  in  my  mind,  as  a  i)ractical 
fisherman,  to  undertake  to  i)rotect  lisli 
by  making  a  close  season  of  the  time  of 


,\\ 


62 


Hpiiwiiiiij:.  Don't  niKlcr.stiUnl  nic  to  ^<uy 
that  will  not  licli)  to  protec^t  fish.  Oi 
course  anytliinj;  tlint  stops  their  eatcii- 
iiiji;,  will  help  to  protect  them,  Imt  if  yon 
CI  mid  stop  jjrill  netting  on  the  reefs,  and 
that  is  where  they  go  to  set  the  gill  nets, 
es|)ecially  in  the  spawning  time,  yon 
would  go  a  long  ways  towards  protecting 
the  fish.  Take  Georgian  Bay,  that  is  a 
great  body  of  water,  t)ut  I  make  this 
proposition  now,  that  with  idl  the  pro- 
tection that  tlie  (/'anadian  laws  afford  if 
gill  netting  is  permitted  in  Georgian 
Bay,  in  less  than  five  years  they  will  be 
scarcer  there  than  they  are  in  T^ake 
Erie. 

Mr.  Craig:  I  did  not  come  here  to  say 
a  word,  but  there  is  one  thing  that  has 
been  mentioned  that  I  am,  perhai)s,  a 
crank  on,  an<l  that  is  tiie  fouling  of  our 
waters.  F  tliink  if  we  in  Michigan  had 
kei)t  our  waters  as  clear  as  they  have 
been  kept  in  (Jeorgian  Bay,  we  would 
have  white  fisii  on  the  spawning  grounds 
just  as  we  had  thirty  years  ago.  Speak- 
ing about  gill  netting  on  Georgian  Fiay, 
there  are  men  there  to-day  who  I  dealt 
with  forty  years  ago  -I  met  them  here 
five  or  six  years  ago,  and  they  have  used 
the  gill  nets  right  ahmg.  I  do  not  be- 
lieve the  gill  nets  are  s»ich  poisonous 
affairs.  I  have  .sold  more  gill  net  fish 
tiian  any  other  kind.  If  a  tish  gets  foul 
he  goes  on  the  oftal  heap.  I  do  not 
know  whether  we  have  laws  to  prevent 
saw  dust  from  being  thrown  in  the  lake, 
but  if  we  have  they  are  not  enforced. 
It  is  destroying  and  driving  off  many  of 
our  fish. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  would  like  to  ask  you 
one  (juestion :  What  in  your  opinion  has 
flestroyed  the  white  fish  in  Lake  Supe- 
rior? There  is  no  saw  dust  thrown  in 
the  water  there  ? 

Mr.  Craig:  There  has  never  been  big 
fishing  in  Lake  Superior,  except  at 
White  Fish  Point,  where  Booth  ct  Com- 
pany are  establishing  their  fishing  nets. 
I  have  tried  fishing  there.  It  is  a  very 
deep  lake,  and  the  only  place  you  can 
set  gill  nets  is  where  it  comes  up  shoal. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr. 
Craig  if  he  would  eat  a  gill  net  fish  that 


h(^  has  haided  In,  if  it  comes  up  stiff  in 
the  net? 

-Mr.  Craig:  Well,  I  don't  kn<»w.  Yes, 
I  guess,  i)erhaps,  I  would. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Pardon  me  if  you  please 
one  moment.  I  am  intruding  upon  you 
too  much,  but  the  subject  that  has  been 
touche<l  upon  by  the  gentleman,  I  think 
it  is  <h(sirable  to  make  further  mention 
of,  and  that  is  saw  dust.  There  can  he 
nothing  more  destructfve  of  fish  than 
the  depositing  of  saw  dust  in  the  rivers 
and  lakes  Wherever  vegetation  of  any 
kind  is  sto))ped  at  the  bottom  of  the 
water,  there  fish  life  is  also  arrested.  In 
fact  the  origin  and  the  production  of 
almost  everything  extant  is  vegetable 
life.  I'pon  land  where  there  is  no  vege- 
tation then^  is  no  animal  life.  In  waters 
where  there  is  no  vegetation  tlu're  is  no 
fish  life.  If  you  '>ut  on  the  bottom  of 
the  waters  a  foreign  sultstance  like  saw 
dust,  vegetable  life  is  stopped,  and  coii- 
secjuently  insect  growth  is  stopjted  and 
consecpiently  fish  life  is  stopped.  Min- 
ute Crustacea  of  various  kinds  are  fed 
U|»on  the  juices  of  these  plants,  which 
feed  the  smaller  fish,  and  in  turn  the 
larger  fish  feeil  upon  the  smaller. 

Mr.  Keyes:  I  want  to  ))eg  your  indul- 
gence, as  I  have  to  go  away,  but  if  the 
gentlemen  of  this  conference  will  take 
up  the  ((uestion  of  gill  netting,  I  would 
like  to  have  them  ask  the  Buffalo  Fish 
Co.,  of  this  city  — which  has  a  branch 
house  here,  and  they  are  as  larg(>  a  fish 
concern  as  there  is  in  the  Cnlted  States, 
and  fish  in  all  waters— I  would  like  to 
ask  their  opinion  as  to  the  merchantable 
and  eatable  (pialitiesof  the  ordinary  fish 
that  are  caught  in  gill  nets  or  trap  nets. 
Don't  understand  me  to  say  that  all  (ish 
caught  in  gill  nets  are  bad.  Not  by  any 
means.  The  fish  that  is  alive  is  proba- 
bly good  enough  to  eat,  though  I  never 
saw  one  in  my  life  l)ut  what  was  in  a  cer- 
tain degree  l)loatetl.  I  would  like  to  have 
you  gentlemen  ask  the  Bnff'alo  Fish  Co., 
or  anybody  that  has  been  with  them  any 
length  of  time,  how  the  fish  comi)are 
with  pound  net  fish  in  their  business? 
Which  fish  can  they  sell  on  the  market 
the  best?     Which  fish  carries  the  best, 


68 


and  vvhicli  linli  gots  to  the  conranier  iii 
till!  Ix'Ht  Hliiiin",  ill  their  ojiininn  as  deal- 
ers ill  lisii?  They  aiv  nut  cutchorH,  1 
bulifvo,  to  any  lar^,'!'  extent.  I  lielicve 
they  are  simply  buyers  of  lisli,  aithoutth 
they  (1(»  li.sii,of  course.  If  there  are  any 
other  K»"itlt^ineti  liere,  I  ilun't  know  as 
th(>re  are,  who  art*  enpijred  in  tiie  liusi- 
ness,  1  would  like  them  In  answer.  Of 
(tourse,  if  u  man  is  eii;jaK»-'d  in  jjill  nett- 
ing lio  won't  a<lniit  these  things.  He  has 
liis  money  in  it,  hut  if  he  is  en;;ai»ed  in 
Itolh  systems  he  will  atlinit  it  in  il9  eases 
out  of  a  100,  and  he  will  also  tell  you 
to  what  extent  the  gill  netting  from 
sprinj,'  to  fall  is  praeticed  in  the  northern 
lakes.  It  is  not  so  mueh  j)ra('ti('ed  in  the 
wattira  of  \Aikv  lOrie,  because  the  waters 
are  warm,  conse([uently  theygouj)  north  ; 
but  you  catch  tish  in  warm  weather  and 
they  very  soon  decay  wImmi  they  are  ex- 
posed to  the  sun,  and  that  is  the  reason 
why  gill  netting  i.s  not  practiced  in  the 
upper  end  of  Lake  Krie  in  the  summer 
months. 

.Mr.  Wilmot:  I  am  afraid  I  am  intrud- 
ing, but  wlien  I  hear  arguments  of  this 
kind  I  feel  it  my  duty  to  put  liefore  this 
confeivnce  the  knowledge  I  have  on  this 
point.  We  have  been  taking  the  evi- 
<lence  of  the  agents  of  the  Buffalo  Fish 
(/'ompany  on  Georgian  Bay  and  on  J^ake 
Huron,  an<l  those  agents  tell  us  they 
get  better  fish  and  hirger  tish  in  the  gill 
nets  than  tliey  do  in  the  pound  nets,  for 
this  reason,  and  it  is  a  very  rational  one: 
The  gill  nets  liave  meshes  of  five  inches 
and  they  get  only  tlie  large  fish,  and 
they  find  that  the  large  fish  are  the  more 
marketable  fish  in  marketthan  thesmall- 
er  lish.  There  is  no  doubt  the  tish  are 
not  as  sound  from  the  gill  nets  as  they 
arc  from  the  pound  nets,  but  the  i)ound 
net  as  now  used  is  far  more  destructive 
than  the  gill  net. 

On  motion  of  Mr.  Hampton  the  reso- 
lutions before  the  house  were  laid  on  the 
table  until  the  reassemliling  this  after- 
noon. 

The  Chairman  then  read  an  itivitation 
from  Mr.  Frank  Clark,  of  Northville, 
Mich.,  to  visit  the  hatcheries  there,  ))ut 


because  of  lack  of  time  it  could  not  be 
accj'pted. 

Mr.  (ioiildjof  Maine:  l  have  drawn  u|> 
a  resolution  here  that  1  would  like  to 
place  before  the  conference  for  their  con- 
sideration on  tlu'  subject  of  uniformity 
of  laws. 

H'tirrrax,  The  difTereiit  state  fish  aii<l  jfaiiie 
commissions  are  more  in  touch  with  the  Inws 
(ii>d  their  defects  throughout  the  entire  state 
where  they  may  hold  ofTice  ;  and, 

ll'hi'i ni.\,  Their  knowledjfe  of  the  general  ri- 
ciuirements  in  a  given  instance  is  greater  than 
that  of  the  laity  at  large  ;  and, 

IVhereas,  By  reason  of  their  office  and  intimate 
knowledge  of  the  needs,  they  are  called  upon  to 
make  suggestions  during  legislative  session  ; 

h'rsolvi'd,  That  in  the  opinion  of  the  Interna- 
tional Fisheries  Confi-rcnce  it  is  plainly  the  duty 
of  the  state  commissioners  to  make  sucli  recom- 
mendations to  their  respective  state  legislatures 
as  their  experience  in  the  practical  workings  of 
their  laws  regulating  tlie  taking  of  fish  may  dic- 
tate. 

A'cjo/z/^'rf,  That  tlie  states  are  fully  competent 
to  make  wholesome  laws  for  the  ])iotectioii  of 
their  fish  and  game, 

Kesolved,  Further,  that  where  in  any  case  from 
lack  of  intimate  knowledge  of  the  habits  or  the 
place  in  the  economy  of  natureof  any  given  spe- 
cies of  fish,  occupies  the  commissioners  shall 
advocate  such  restrictive  legislation  as  will 
leave  no  doubt  as  to  its  efficacy  until  such  inves- 
tigation has  been  made  as  will  enable  them  to 
give  intelligent  recommeddations  on  the  sub- 
ject. 

Mr.  Post:  I  will  support  the  resolu- 
tion. 

The  motion  was  put  and  unanimously 
adopted. 

Or.  Sweeny:  I  wish  to  present  the  fol- 
lowing resolution : 

Resolved,  That  it  is  the  judgment  of  this  con- 
ference there  should  be  a  close  season  for  bass 
and  that  such  season  should  be  between  the  ist 
of  April  and  the  15th  of  June,  and  all  kinds  of 
fishing.includiugspeariug,  should  be  prohibited 
in  the  close  season. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  The  proper  season  should 
l)e  from  the  1st  of  May  to  the  Ist  of  July. 

Mr.  Hampton :  There  is  one  thing  that 
seems  to  be  overlooked,  and  that  is  the 
getting  of  something  that  the  legisla- 
tures will  ndopt.  The  recommendations 
you  })ass  upon  will  have  no  force  with 
them.  The  Fish  Commissioners  know 
something  about  the  efforts  necessary  to 


64 


J 


iiifluciu'i!  the  li'KiHlatoi-H,  lUid  I  HUggcst 
tliiit  you  make  tlie  clcmc  hi'IIHou  hh  rt'ii- 
Hoiuil)!*'  as  poHHiblo. 

Mr.  Wliitttkcr:  Let  tnc  Hay  one  word 
inn'ply.  Il'tlifn'  is  unytliiiiK  tliat  oiijrlit 
to  liavc  iiitliu'iici'  witli  a  IcjtiHlatiin"  it  \h 
tlic  opinion  of  this  (Hniferciu'c.  It  waw 
(•uIUmI  into  cxistcnco  ))y  tlic  authority  of 
till!  Province  of  Ontario,  and  tiiis  in  a 
continuation  of  those  ineetin>,'8.  It  seems 
to  me  the  re<'oniniendation  of  the  repre- 
sentatives of  the  (UH'erent  states,  calh'd 
upon  to  meet  and  dis(!UHS  these  tiuestions, 
certainly  ou;iiit  to  liave  some  force  he- 
f(tre  a  k'^ishiture. 

Mr.  Ainsden:  I  am  rather  inclined  to 
think  this  conference  had  hetter  leave 
tliat  question  alone.  I  think  if  we  take 
uji  the  Hsh  of  the  great  lakes  here  and 
give  our  attention  to  them  we  shall  ac- 
complish all  we  can  expect.  The  dis- 
trihution  of  hlack  hass  covers  so  much 
territory,  and  there  are  such  diffi-rences 
in  temperature,  and  they  vary  so  in 
time  of  their  spawning  season,  I  rather 
think  we  hadn't  better  try  to  pass  any 
such  resolution.  Better  leave  out  the 
hlack  bass.  It  is  the  dearest  lish  to  me 
there  is,  and  I  think  their  domestic 
habits  are  so  much  to  be  admired  that 
we  cannot  do  too  much  to  protect  them, 
but  at  the  same  time  I  think  we  had  bet- 
ter leave  that  alone. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Our  Dominion  Govern- 
ment covers  se\*eral  states,  and  we  have 
taken  the  trouble  to  ascertain  from 
these  different  states,  which  include 
Ontario,  (^nebec,  Manitoba,  Nova  Scotia 
and  New  Brunswick,  about  their  spawn- 
ing habit,  and  we  find  there  is  very  lit- 
tle deviation  at  all  in  regard  to  tlieir 
spawning  periods  in  the  different  waters. 
We  find  that  the  black  bass,  as  a  rule, 
almost  invariably  spawns  in  all  tliese 
waters  during  the  months  of  May  and 
June,  more  i)articularly  the  latter  end  of 
May  and  the  beginning  of  June.  But  as 
previously  remarked  this  fish  is  so  soli- 
citous of  its  eggs,  and  its  young,  that  it 
remains  longer  in  the  act  of  spawning 
and  taking  care  of  its  young  than  any 
other  fish,  and  tlierefore,  the  months  of 
May  and  June  should  hea<lopted  as  the 


proj)er  close  season.  I  do  ntit  think  you 
could  get  a  better  period  than  May  and 
June.  If  yon  commence  earlier  than 
that  you  infringe;  on  the  angler  too 
much,  and  if  yon  allow  Ihem  to  be  taken 
from  the  loth  of  June  to  the  1st  of  .inly 
you  interfere  with  the  parent  fish  in  the 
care  of  its  young.  I  speak  from  an  ex- 
perience of  thirty  or  forty  years. 

Mr.  Whitaker:  We  will  now  vote  on 
the  resolution. 

Kesoli'fd,  Th.Tt  ill  the  jiulgineiit  of  this  confcr- 
encf  there  should  be  n  clo.se  season  for  black 
bass  and  that  such  .season  should  be  between 
the  ist  of  April  and  the  i.sth  of  June,  and  all 
kinds  of  fishing,  includiux  spearin^r,  slioiild  be/ 
prohibited  in  the  clo.se  season.  f 

\  vote  was  taken  and  the  rescdution 
was  adoi)ted. 

TIh' conference  then  took  a  recess  until 
4  p.  m. 


Wednksdav,  Dee.  :ilst,  4  v.  m. 

(Chairman  Whitaker:  The  conference 
will  please  come  to  order.  I  will  ask  Mr. 
Bowman  to  perform  the  functions  of  pre- 
siiling  officer,  as  it  becomes  necessary 
for  me  to  be  absent  the  rest  of  this  ses- 
sion. 

Chairman  Bowman:  We  will  now  li.«- 
ten  to  the  report  of  the  committee  of 
three  appointed  to  report  back  to  this 
conference  the  size  of  white  fish. 

Dr.  Parker:  I  will  report  that  we  found 
in  weighing  the  fish  that  one  fifteen  in- 
ches long  weighs  one  and  one-half 
pounds,  and  one  seventeen  inches  long 
weighs  two  pounds.  So  that  we  would 
recommend  that  no  fish  less  than  fifteen 
inches  should  be  put  upon  the  market. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Don't  you  think  that  a 
rather  small  size,  after  all  ? 

Dr.  Parker:  Yes,  it  is  pretty  small. 

Mr.  Amsden:  Two  jtounds  is  small 
enough,  and  it  seems  to  me  as  low  as  we 
ought  to  go,  but  we  will  have  to  get  it 
Ml  re  ugh  by  degrees. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  No  fish  under  sixteen  in- 
ches then, say. 

Dr.  Parker:  Mr.  Craig  stated  before  the 
committee  that  that  fish  (referring  to  fish 
on  the  table  brought  from  the  Sandwich 
hatchery)  was  as  small  as  ought  to  be 


65 


(I 


put  on  the  market;  sltonld  be  the  limit, 
in  liiH  idea.  I  thinly  weon^ht  rather  to 
exeeed  tlie  limit  than  to  go  nnder  it,  as 
HngK««ted  by  Mr.  VVilmot. 

Ciiairman :  Then  do  you  report  tliat 
tiie  limit  should  be  sixteen  inches  in 
length? 

\)\\  Parker:  Yes,  sir. 

Chairman  Bowman:  Do  any  of  you 
gentlemen  wish  to  be  heard  on  this  ques- 
tion ?  The  eonimittee  have  reporteil  that 
all  white  tish  taken  of  less  than  sixteen 
inches  in  length  shall  be  returned  to  the 
waters  where  taken,  and  shall  not  be  ex- 
posed for  sale.  If  there  are  no  remarks 
I  will  put  the  question. 

The  motion  prevailed. 

Will  the  Secretary  reati  the  report  as 
amended  in  fuU. 

(The  Secretary  reads  the  report.) 

Mr.  Andrus:  I  move  the  adoption  of 
this  report  as  amended. 

(The  motion  was  supported  by  ^Ir. 
H'lntington.) 

Unanimously  carried. 

Chairman  Bowman :  There  is  (me 
other  (luestion  left  to  be  acted  upon, 
and  that  is  the  resolution  of  Mr.  Keyes : 
"  That  all  fishing  with  gill  nets  shall  be 
j)rohibited  in  the  great  lakes  in  less  than 
eighty  feet  of  water." 

Mr.  Post:  I  have  a  word  to  say  in  re- 
gard to  that.  There  was  one  thing  that 
occurred  to  me  while  we  were  discussing 
it.  The  principal  objection  which  Mr. 
Keyes  made  to  gill  net  fishing  (of  course, 
he  admits  it  is  impossible  to  abolish  gill 
net  fishing)  was,  that  if  they  fished  on 
the  waters  less  than  eighty  feet  in  de])th 
they  were  going  on  the  spawning 
grounds.  We  have  already  adopted  a 
measure  which  takes  that  out  of  the 
possibilities,  if  our  recommendations  are 
adopted.  Thespawningseasonin  which 
no  fishing  is  allowed  is  the  month  of 
November.  So  that  objection  is  taken 
from  under  him.  The  argument  is  gone. 
Now,  you  might  as  well  try  to  pull  your- 
self up  to  the  second  story  with  your 
boot  straps  as  try  to  abolish  gill  net  fish- 
ing. I  think  it  is  just  about  as  impossi- 
ble and  about  as  unreasonable. 
9 


Mr.  Amsden:  Would  it  not  be  well  to 
put  some  restrictions  upon  it. 

Mr.  Post:  If  you  have  your  dose  sea- 
son during  the  spawning  season,  that 
puis  a  restriction  upon  it.  Let  them 
fish  with  their  gill  nets  wherever  they 
(an.  They  cannot  tish  in  very  shallow 
water.  Their  tishiiig  on  the  reefs  is  not 
hindering  reproduction.  Of  course,  our 
brother's  provision  with  reference  to 
pound  nets  probably  ought  to  be  ex- 
tended to  gill  nets.  He  st.ys  there  is  a 
wall  of  gill  nets  clear  a(!ross  Lnke  I'^rie, 
and  I  would  not  be  surprised  if  he  is 
pretty  nearly  correct,  i  know  it  is  a 
pretty  smart  fish  that  gets  up  Luke  Erie. 
I  was  a  little  amused  at  his  statement  as 
to  the  storms  taking  all  his  pr  und  nets 
out.  I  have  been  turning  the  matter 
over  in  my  own  mind  asto  whether  that 
did  not  account  for  our  better  catch  of 
fish  on  the  Detroit  River  this  season. 
We  have  had  a  better  catch  this  year 
than  for  many  years  before,  and  we  flat- 
tered ourselves  a  little  becau.se  we  fished 
our  nets  ourselves  and  thought  we  did  it 
a  little  better.  I  think  that  storm  that 
knocked  out  their  pound  nets  let  a  few 
of  the  fish  through.  I  think  it  goes  u 
gcKKl  ways  towards  explaining  the  b(!tter 
catch  in  the  Detroit  River. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  If  you  take  the  gist  of 
the  argument  of  the  gentleman,  you 
will  find  it  to  be  this:  that  the  pound 
netsc(iul(l  be  set  within  four  miles  of  the 
shore  but  the  depth  of  water  is  not  gen- 
erally so  great  ''.lere,  and  conse(iuently, 
if  you  limit  the  gill  nets  to  the  distance 
which  the  water  would  indicate,  beyond 
that  the  pound  nets  fisheries  W)uld 
have  the  exclusive  monopoly  of  thefish- 
ing,  and  I  think  that  is  what  the  gentle- 
man was  aiming  at. 

Dr.  Parker:  I  move  the  consideration 
of  this  subject  be  indefinitely  postponed. 

Mr.  Andrus :  I  second  the  motion. 

Carried. 

Mr.  Hampton:  There  is  one  thing, 
gentlemen,  that  I  think  you  have  not 
expressed  any  opinion  upon,  and  I  be- 
lieve it  might  be  well  to  express  an  opin- 
ion, simply  for  the  effect  it  would  have 


■p 


(50 


upon  our  legislatureH.  I  see  from  a  cur- 
sory examination  of  the  New  York  law 
tliat  they  seize  nets  there  tiiat  are  iHe- 
gally  used.  It  seems  to  me  t()])e  well  to 
adopt  a  resolution  to  the  etiect  thai  the 
laws  should  permit  and  authorize  the 
seizure  ot  nets  illegally  used.  We  have 
no  siich  law  in  Miehigan,  and  1  can  say 
from  experience  we  were  very  much 
hampered  iu  the  enforcement  of  the 
law.  Carrying  out  this  idea  I  will  offer 
the  following  resolution: 

Ki'solved,  That  the  law  should  authorize  thc 
Heizure  ai:d  de.structiou  of  nets  u.sed  in  violation 
of  law. 

Dr.  Parker:  I  will  second  that  resolu- 
tion. 

Air.  Ilamjjton :  I  have  found  this  in 
this  state:  We  have  sometimes  seized 
the  nets;  the  man  is  convicted,  and  pays 
the  penalty,  or  the  Justice  sometimes 
suspends  the  penalty.  lie  takes  his  net 
and  goes  on  the  same  as  he'ore,  only  he 
will  be  a  little  more  careful.  I  have  con- 
strued the  law — not  being  a  lawyer  I 
could  do  so — to  mean  that  they  were  con- 
traband goods,  and  I  have  seized  them, 
but  they  came  with  a  writ  of  replevin 
and  I  was  oliHged  to  give  them  up. 

Mr.  Wilmot-  The  system  pursued  in 
Canada  is  substantially  tiii;-:  For  a  long 
period  of  time  the  nets  were  seized  and 
sold.  We  found  that  such  an  absurdity 
that  we  came  to  the  concIu.^ion  that  the 
better  plan  was  to  destroy  the  net  at 
once.  And  now,  as  soon  as  tlie  officer 
seizes  the  nets,  he  burns  them.  There 
should  be  a  limit  to  the  length  of  any 
net  used  in  a  boat.  Some  persons  are  in 
the  liabit  of  using  thnu*  or  four  kinds  of 
nets,  and  they  are  left  out  in  a  storm, 
and  consequently  thousands  of  lish  are 
destroyed. 

Mr.  Hampton's  resolution  was  unani- 
mously adopted. 

Mr.  Wilmot  :  I  have  been  looking  at 
these  little  fish  audadmiring  them.  You 
have  designated  in  your  motion  that  the 
tisb  slu'll  be  si.\teen  inches  long.  Now 
(piery:  How  will  you  measure  that  fish 
to  get  rid  of  a  dispute  in  case  of  a  con- 
viction? 


Chairman:  From  nose  to  tail. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  But  what  part  of  the  tail? 
I  should  say  from  the  tip  of  the  nose  to 
the  center  of  the  tail.  There  is  some- 
times an  inch  difference  between  the  tip 
of  the  tail  and  the  center  of  the  tail,  tak- 
ing the  extreme  limits.  I  would  suggest 
that  the  measurement  should  be  from 
the  tip  of  the  nose  to  the  center  of  the 
tail,  or  th"  > -il  tin.  A  dispute  might 
arise  as  U  .ength  of  the  tail. 

Xo  action  v/as  taken  on  the  point  sug- 
gested by  Mr.  Wilmot. 

Mr.  Wilmot:  Before  we  adjourn  1 
would  beg  to  tender  to  this  conference 
the  thanks  of  the  commission  of  Canada 
who  have  attended  for  the  courtesies  ex- 
tended to  them.  We  feel  deeply  grati- 
fied that  we  should  be  penhitted  to  come 
here  by  the  kind  invitation  you  hi»nt, 
and  we  now  wish  to  tender  our  thanks 
for  the  courtesy  that  has  been  extended 
to  us. 

Chairman  Bowman  ;  The  Secretary  and 
stenographer  will  make  note  of  what  has 
been  said.  It  has  been  very  kind  of  you; 
indeed,  gentlemen,  to  come  here,  and  we 
desire  to  make  you  one  of  us  as  much  as 
we  can 

Mr.  Harris:  I  can  only  add  my  thanks. 
1  have  been  very  happy  in  attending 
this  meeting.  I  shall  not  forget  my  visit 
to  Detroit  for  some  time  and  I  am  very 
glad  that  you  gentlemen  have  been 
pleased. 

Secretary:  I  want  to  make  a  motion 
that  it  be  the  sense  of  this  meeting  that 
further  meetings  of  this  conference  are 
desirable,  leaving  it  open  to  be  calle<l 
whenever  the  spirit  moves.  That  it 
shall  be  subject  to  the  call  of  the  Chair- 
man at  any  time,  whenever  the  necessity 
arises. 

Dr.  Sweeny  :  I  will  second  that  resolu- 
tion. 

Dr.  Parker:  How  would  it  be  to  make 
it  an  annual  affair,  anyway? 

Dr.  Sweeny  :  It  would  be  very  pleasant 
to  me  personally. 

Dr.  Parker:  The  {\\  stion  is  wlxether 
there  are  enough  subjects  to  come  up 
for  discussion. 


I 


67 


t 


Tlie  Secretary :  1  think  you  will  fiml 
that  enough  subjects  will  come  up,  and 
1  think  it  would  be  well  to  embody  it  in 
the  resolution. 

(The  resolution  was  unanimously 
adopted. ) 

Chairman  Bowman :  I  would  like  to 
say  l)efore  we  separate  on  behalf  of  the 
American  members  of  the  conference 
that  we  are  all  delighted  and  very  much 
pleased  with  you  gentlemen  from  Can- 


ada, and  there  is  a  general  feeling  that 
we  would  like  to  get  nearer  together. 
Our  interest  \ii  fisii  matters  are  in  uni- 
son and  it  would  not  only  be  pleasant 
always  to  have  you  with  us  but  I  think 
it  would  do  us  both  good.  Certainly, 
we  feel  that  we  are  receiving  good  from 
you  hands. 

The  conference   then  adjourned  sine 
ilie. 


